rob

Like I said before, I don't think there's anything wrong with this. After all, cragging is just practice, anyway, isn't it? There's nothing wrong with TRing, either, and that's definitely cheating. I can totally see how rap-placed bolting can result in superior practice climbs. My point was, that leading a route with pre-placed bolts is, to me, the same as leading a route with pre-placed cams. It's hard for me to imagine someone shaking their dick at me trying to keep me off of their "new classic" when the pro's all been pre-placed. What if I pre-place all my gear and just clip into it with quickdraws on lead? Can I call that a redpoint? That's what sport-climbers are essentially doing. So it seems silly to hear so much hullabaloo about someone getting in the way of their shot at eternal glory by poaching the FA on exit 38's latest gym climb. Ooooh snap! I've done it now. Flame away!

I'm in. How can I help?

well, he does know a lot about drilling

on the FF vireo. Tried it on several summer alpine climbs in the summer, and I still managaged to get cold, and I'm usually a pretty warm sleeper.... I guess half-bags just don't work for me. Given the same weight, I'd go with a full bag so I could suppliment with the puffy for the colder nights. Otherwise, half-bag + puffy and you have nothing extra for when the temps drop. YMMV

Get there late -- then you get to park others in

Exactly, why would he get caught since he "knows" the guy is guilty anyway?

dude you must have good 'car'ma or sumpin, ive never had an easy time finding a camp spot in the canyon in good weather - and been shut out a couple times. BCrk would be great but last I heard, with some grounds now closed, I can only imagine it getting worse. Thanks for the suggestions though for sure!! To be clear, I'm not talking about BrCreek campground, I'm talking about the little turnoff a few hundred feet up mountaineer creek rd that goes into the little clearing where you can just throw yr bag on the ground and sleep for free.... I've never seen it empty, but I've never seen it full, either. I doubt that the tourons will be crashing it either, since there's not so much as a picnic table....

Thanks! Me too. (or are you being snide? I've met you, you seem like a nice guy, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.)

i'm not sure what's up with the recent slide damage, but aren't the dirt-bag camps still open up on bridge-creek road or whatever? I've never had trouble finding room there, even if I end up sleeping in (or under) my car.

Maybe it's just me, but rap-bolting has always felt like cheating. Its easy for me to say, perhaps, since I'm not a "crag developer" and have never "put up a route". Nevertheless, I'm a big believer in ground-up "ethics." Rapping down, setting pro (trad or bolts) and then giving it a go just seems like cheating. This type of climbing seems kind of unnatural to me, and I view it similar to top-roping a climb -- in both situations the climb wasn't really done properly. A bolt placed on rap just permanently marks the climb as something that couldn't have ever been done "for real." Not that there's anything wrong with this, but like top-roping, I don't fool myself that I've "done the climb." I'm fairly new in my climbing career, so I guess I'm just being too idealistic or naive? Pro should be placed on lead, bolts or otherwise. Or else you're using unnatural means to mitigate the challenges or dangers of the climb. Again, easy for me to say, right? Cause I'm so hardcore. I have spoken.

I can't articulate quite as well as you can, Jay, but it is my opinion that they knew that they were lying, but that they thought they were right (if that makes any sense.) Sort of like the cop who plants evidence because he's convinced the guy is a drug dealer anyway, but just too smooth to get caught honestly....

All excellent points, Rad. I can't argue with any of them. But i was mostly responding to Kevbone's post, referring to the line as "his work" and hoping he "created" a classic. If someone puts in some work to clean a route and gets it ready for a lead, I can totally understand why they would want the FA. *I* would. BUT, I don't understand why they'd just walk away and expect everyone else to stay off while they think about it. What are they waiting for? If the route is ready, send the shit. If you can't send it, step aside. If you have to wait till the next weekend or something, take the hangers with you and hope nobody else notices yr fancy new classic. I just don't understand it. I guess I'm not very respectful. Maybe I just need Bill to give me an old-school beating.

Why do you guys hate America?

At least the truth comes out. I have never hidden from the truth about my political ideas. I am a FAR right republican. I am so far right, I might be miss understood as an extremely left hippy. Yeah, so much so that you don't care what's happening, as long as it makes the democrats frustrated. You're as bad as the dems who want the war to fail so that GW looks bad. Thankfully, I know you don't represent most republicans, since most republicans aren't cockasses like yourself.

At least the truth comes out.

You are being foolish or naive. $4.00/gallon gas is because of a growing global economy. Unlike what happened in the 70's where it oil prices shot up because of artificially created shortage of supply. Allow the market place to correct the higher costs of Gas, and it will find alternatives. Continued chasing down the dirty rat bastard! HELL YES! And after Iraq, Iran. When they get the bomb they are going to bomb Israel, they are going to bomb France, they are going to bomb Germany, they are going to bomb the UK, and then they are going to find a long range delivery system and bomb us. Pull your head out of the sand! The devaluation of the dollar has made it so I get much more money for my exports. The value of the dollar is determined by the supply and demand for that dollar. As other emerging markets develop they will shift demand away from the green back. As the US economy slows those other markets will slow more and international investors will shift make to the green back and strengthen the dollar. The value of the Dollar is only relative. It is a doubled edge sword with both good and bad effects of being weak or strong. Loss of world respect because we don't kiss ass any more. Now we Kick ASS! WOW! Everything is just going great, isn't it???

This is why I'm not a sport climber. How can you "create" a classic? The rock is there to be climbed. If the climb has to be "created" then I'm not really that interested in getting on it. If you want the FA, then climb it first. I guess sport routes are different, since so much "effort" has to be put in to "create" the climb. Cause, you know, it wasn't there before you "put it up".

Hey, if you spent all that money getting her ready, why would you leave her alone at the bar? Just saying.

Welcome back, C. You forget your password or what? And yes, we are, like, weird. It's why you luv us. It's my semi-yearly delurking season (sort of like the semi-yearly womens sale at Nordstrom, only different). The rest of the year I watch. And wait. What are the sale prices on women like at Nordstrom's? If you have to ask you can't afford them. The purchase price is the least consideration. The maintenance costs are what will bleed you dry. And the resale value is typically very low.

Is that your official position? Obama is dumb and only got into Harvard cause he's black? I was just being facetious about the "you're dumb" thing because these arguments are so childish. But now I wonder

So, does this apply to ice climbs, too? Can I pop a v-thread ontop of an unclimbed line and call it a project for the winter?

wow, but there are some pretty good prices on C4s http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/climbdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__ProductID=BD601&code=ccc

I don't see why you can't climb something just cause somebody else is working on it. It doesn't sound like was "developed" much. It's a trad line, right? I just has bolt anchors at top? Does this mean I can go to any wall, drill a few bolts at top and now the entire climb is MINE and nobody else can climb it until I get the time to send it myself? Phh, bullshit. I don't get this whole "project" thing. Did Hillary back off of Everest because it was someone else's "project?" Maybe sport climbing is different, since a lot more work goes into "developing" the climb.

Obviously those are not his Iraq glasses -- they are not rose-colored.

This is one of the most nonsensical statements yet, with regard to candidate selection. What is this love-affair/obsession with career politicians? By the people, of the people, dude. Our founding fathers didn't have any intention that only career politicians should lead the country. In fact, their intentions were quite the opposite. Oh, and you're dumb.