Raindawg

In fact, you can add a whole bunch to the entire route and really dumb-it down!

The fact is, if the "rules" allow for one to hang off a line of closely fixed pro and rehearse indefinitely (i.e., the status quo in much of "free climbing" today), YOU, TOO, can be a 5.11/.12/.13 whatever bad dog if you've got the zeal, time and energy to siege a route into submission! Climbing it clean (leaving little or no trace....just like them backpackers figgered out 50 years ago) from the bottom up without falling, though, is another thing altogether. Booooooo!

The debate ain't over yet at all. I'm glad y'all had fun but the fact is: it's an illegal, power-drilled, rap-bolted sport-climb in a wilderness area, whether the route "creators" knew it or not. Please do not further endorse it by climbing it again. Thank you.

Classy response! Feel better about yourself? And you didn't even get it right! - it's been more like 11 years; - I'm not particularly "old"; - slovenly? Never been called that before. - groveling with a twig? hardly. In other words, the horse ain't dead, not even close. Here's how to make your life happier....if you see the name "Raindawg" on a post....DON'T READ IT...SCROLL ON BY, BUDDY. You won't have to be re-exposed to ideas you disagree with and you might be less compelled to resort to nasty attacks on a climbing forum. Permanent pit-toilets at Vantage? I supposed that's one possible solution to corralling the crap but they too will be vandalized and abused, expensive, and will require regular maintenance which someone will have to pay for, etc..

There aren't "Dawg-approved zones"...you made that one up. I'm an advocate of "clean-climbing," an environmental concept put forth decades ago and neglected with the rise and convenience of "sport climbing." Clean climbing advocates that the least alteration to the natural climbing environment is the ideal. Therefore, gear that is retrievable and leaves little trace (e.g. chocks/nuts, cams, etc.)is to be preferred rather than the repeated placement of pitons or the permanent establishment of routes consisting solely of closely-spaced bolts. Therefore, bolts and pins should be rare and each should be justified. This philosophy advocates that it's better to leave the rock alone than to mar it with a line of closely-spaced permanent anchors. By these standards, Vantage is an atrocity. Do I believe that all bolts should be banned? No, they have their limited place, but they should be RARE. Sport climbing is fun. It drastically reduces the learning curve, it's mostly safe, the manufacturers love it because it sells a lot of shoes, ropes, harnesses, etc., but it's all about convenience at the expense of the rock. You're welcome to disagree, but name-calling (routine here on cc.com) doesn't address the issue and pointing out the larger impacts of roads and ski-lifts doesn't absolve anyone of their individual responsibility over their own actions, for example, to drill another sport route or to endorse it by climbing it. For one of the early classic declarations of this viewpoint read Doug Robinson's, "The Natural Art of Protection" from the 1972 Chouinard catalog: 1972 Chouinard Catalog and Essay Read it, think about it, and then tell me what you think of Vantage. Or visit Icicle Canyon in Leavenworth, where you'll find a wonderland of numerous clean climbs invaded by a bunch of gratuitous bolted lines. You might be interested to know that more and more climbing areas are being closed, or put under rules, because of over-bolting and other climber abuses. And despite what you might read on cc.com, I'm not the only one that agrees with the above. aloha, - "Raindawg"

I guess you're adverse to contrary opinions and thus resort to name-calling. It's not all about you; not everyone has heard my perspective and I'm pleased to continue to share it. Plastic bags can and should be picked up, "tat" can and should be removed and carbon monoxide can and should be reduced. Try that with the hundreds of convenience bolts at Vantage. Do you believe in the general concept of "Leave No Trace" as understood by just about any average backpacker, etc? If you do, then justify what climbers have done to Vantage.

Or find another place to climb where that isn't an issue. There are plenty of great, solid places to climb in Washington. That's not the point. You can take your rope home with you at the end of the day. It's not left permanently at or on the rock. Concert-goers aren't the only ones making a mess at Vantage. At least much of their garbage can be hauled away or burned. There seems to be a long-standing assumption that "climbers" today are somehow specially or automatically ecologically educated or aware. I don't see that being the case at all. Count the number of bolts in the photo above at a section of "The Feathers" - short 30 ft. climbs. Outrageous!

As if climbers don't do the same??? They also seem to have no problem leaving their metallic "poop" every few feet on any convenient piece of rock. (I may have missed a few.) You are f*&king nuts! I guess you don't understand the concept, eh? Leaving a mess? Get it? At least the real "poop" maintains the possibility of being buried and disintegrating in relatively short order (or otherwise being responsibly disposed of) and thus leaving little trace of it having been there. Vantage? Find some protectable cracks and top-rope the other stuff, instead of making a HUGE MESS.

As if climbers don't do the same??? They also seem to have no problem leaving their metallic "poop" every few feet on any convenient piece of rock. (I may have missed a few.)

It's been going on for a long time! We had our vehicle ripped off in the same place in 1978! They took my buddy's crampons, rock shoes, and even his underwear. They snatched a bag that had a very special album of my climbing photos (which probably was quickly thrown away) and guidebooks. I was told that a few years ago, the trail-head thieves were using walkie-talkies to watch the road and the trails, and an acquaintance of mine was held at gun-point on the trail until the deeds were done and clear. Sorry it happened to you too.

This isn't even a discussion if you don't include BIG LOU! [img:center]http://cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/504/HRH_Lou.jpg[/img]

Add your two-cents to the ignorant cyber-bullying dog-pile. I see that you claim to speak for everyone ["we"]. You don't. You clearly have no understanding of what I do and even if you did, it's irrelevant other than I occasionally use climbing skills in my work. Here's a response from a current parallel topic that I think is likewise appropriate for you: Raindawg's Response: You seem to think that you can "win" arguments by making them into a hypocrisy debate. It's called the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem, in case you haven't heard of it: "an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it." You rarely address the merits of the climbing issue, and when you do it's a personal attack [which is allegedly prohibited on this site.] By the way, the Valley of the Kings was "altered" 3500 years ago to serve as a royal cemetery by Egyptians who had neither bolts nor an interest in climbing. Archaeologists working there today, including myself, are heavily involved in restoration and conservation to an extent you clearly wouldn't appreciate. By the way, do you climb at Index? It's a big "altered" rock quarry. The big question is, what are YOU doing about the way YOU treat your climbing environment TODAY? I don't expect a reasonable response.

You seem to think that you can "win" arguments by making them into a hypocrisy debate. It's called the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem, in case you haven't heard of it: "an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it." You rarely address the merits of the climbing issue, and when you do it's a personal attack [which is allegedly prohibited on this site.] By the way, the Valley of the Kings was "altered" 3500 years ago to serve as a royal cemetery by Egyptians who had neither bolts nor an interest in climbing. Archaeologists working there today, including myself, are heavily involved in restoration and conservation to an extent you clearly wouldn't appreciate. By the way, do you climb at Index? It's a big "altered" rock quarry. The big question is, what are YOU doing about the way YOU treat your climbing environment TODAY? I don't expect a reasonable response.

I don't know what your profession is, but I'm too dignified to insult it, and I assume it has nothing to do with climbing. Nor am I interested in making some sort of juvenile parody of your internet "avatar", KaskadskyjKozak. My vast intellect seems to be unable to understand why you persist, or why you haven't been banned for making personal attacks. 14985 posts?....aiming for that big 15,000, hero?

Yah? Did you like that? Here's the short version: Chirp posts a video of some chump ripping off a house in Tacoma. A "moderator" chimes in, thinking he's funny, that maybe it's my buddy, "pope" that's the perp. [Neither pope nor myself (Dwayner/Raindawg) contribute much to this site anymore.) And then another "moderator" pipes in and thinks it funny to add my name as a possible perp. I responded, by noting that these jokes "were pointed out to me by others who likewise found it unfunny. I don't thinks it's reasonable to even jokingly link someone's name to theft on the internet or within the climbing "community". Especially when it targets two people who have limited their participation on this site." There were a few more exchanges in which a couple of folks actually agreed with me and then a moderator, I assume, cut out of the direct references to me and "pope", but, nonetheless, in typical low self-esteem fashion, the usual suspects initiate their dog-pile on me and the career they envy. That's the story, Rob. Sad to see you participating.

I hear if you take enough LSD you'll not only cut bolts on Garfield, you'll chew the dessicated flesh of the mummy in KV 60 There was once a rule about personal attacks by which you should rightly be banned on this site. If you can't offer much more than that, and if you can't stick to addressing climbing, perhaps you should get lost. Obviously you've been reading about my discoveries, but you have no respect. What you wrote above was disgusting. [An explanation: KV 60 is the name of a tomb I rediscovered, as a professional archaeologist with permission from the Egyptian government, in an ancient cemetery, the Valley of the Kings. The tomb contained a mummy whom the Egyptians have identified as a very famous ruler of Egypt. Here, KaskadskyjKozak seems to link my climbing ethics involving drastically limiting bolts, with taking LSD, with one of my career highlights. Again, what you wrote above is disgusting.] P.S. 14,979 posts? And I need a life????

Brother Buckaroo....I ain't endorsing spray paint at all. The paint is ridiculous. I was just adding a little perspective by citing a personal cause...some of the folks who might complain about the paint probably have no problem clipping closely-spaced permanent sport bolts, or gratuitous bolts in the wilderness, which to me, are at least as audacious.

Your utter ignorance speaks for itself.

Y'all complain about spray-paint, but I don't hear so much noise about hundreds of permanent metallic sign posts, a.k.a. bolts, that are found in increasing numbers on any climbable piece of what-not all over the Northwest. Check out a little fiasco known as "Infinite Bliss" on Mt. Garfield in a wilderness zone. Spray paint is easier to fix then popping out and restoring hundreds of bolts and hangers. Kind of ironic that you free-stylin', free-thinkin' sport-clippers complain about a little paint (graffiti in an urban environment), but have no problem makin' a permanent mess every few feet if it facilitates your fun.

I've worked in the guiding industry for 12 years and I've never heard a single guide say that they didn't accept cash tips. Contrary to what you said, I believe that tipping a mountain guide is absolutely a long established tradition. Not that you get a tip on every trip, but certainly the majority of trips. It isn't expected, but definitely appreciated..... Fishing guides and raft guides certainly receive tips. Working as a guide and not accepting tips is fine, but I'd say you were out of touch with your fellow guides if you weren't aware of them accepting cash tips. Unless maybe it was a really long time ago (?). It could be that times have changed since I was last full-time active in that business twenty years ago. And as I said, I never knew anyone who at least admitted to taking additional money from a client. I don't tip my physician, lawyer or professor, all of whom are specialized professionals as are mountain guides. And if you're a guide and you don't think you're being paid enough so you feel that you need to rely on tips...enjoy the fact that you're living a lot of folk's dream, i.e., to get paid to go climbing for a few months of the year...and then during the other months, find another job. Lots of people do that. It's a lifestyle, and not a bad one. If I was still in the business, I'd still refuse a tip.

I guided for years and never accepted a cash tip from a client. Dinner and beers? Yes. Cash, no. Nor was I aware that anyone else I worked with took monetary "tips". Tips might be a tradition elsewhere (the Alps, Nepal, etc.), but it comes off to me like charity. (Not that tip-receiving folk like restaurant waiters necessarily beg for charity, but it's a long-established tradition to tip in their industry.) Guides should be climbing role-models for their clients, who will take cues from them, and guides should be outfitted with good gear. If you can't afford it, get a pro-deal or freebies rather than giving the appearance of being a pathetic beggar; many of the companies know that the clients will make gear purchases based on what the guide uses.

The best place to live in Washington is So. Cal., cuz truth is, guys like me are colonists with the ultimate goal of making California's borders from Mexico to Canada. Y'all complain about us buying up your property, but you sell it to us, and then whine about "Californicatin'" your culture, which you soak up like a sponge. Whaaaaaaa!

I throw you punks a bone and all you do is complain about wanting new material or you respond with personal insults. Too bad. You're lucky anyone is still left to even read your whining. Another favorite of mine: ENJOY!

Anybody chop Infinite Bliss yet?