Sorry fellow bone, got at little side tracked from your original discussion. Just that there is a VERY sensitive bird closure at our local crag and some of us are REAL sensitive about it. Any time some one mentions "bird closures” I feel I need to bring up Beacon, maybe just to vent, maybe to let others know of the hypocrisy happing out there. Either way sorry, looks like there are two discussions going on here. (Like most threads on cc.com).