JosephH

You're the one who made the ludicrous "rediscovery" comment, and right on the heels of the equally ridiculous "cams and stoppers aren't manmade artifacts just like bolts". Just who's out of touch with reality here...?

Bill, did I miss something? Why do I suddenly feel like Geronimo on Columbus Day... anyone surprised by the fact that joseph is ignorant of what is happening in the larger world outside the backwater of beacon rock? Off hand, I'd say that: a) you didn't get the joke b) you were clipping bolts so long you failed to notice people have been trad climbing all along c) the percentage of climbers capable of being responsibile for their own safety on a rock dwindled to the point where the vast majority forgot it was even possible, let alone desirable d) 'adventure climbing' is no longer an oxymoron wielded by those seeking to move 'climbing' even further into the shadows or e) all of the above

Bill, the lack of distinction between gay, hetero, or interracial marriage is rooted in what I would call 'constitutional equality' where the operative phrase - updated from 1700's - would be "all people" (as opposed to "all men"); that constitutional and legal guarantees should not be apportioned to only some people based on some basic attribute of their existence someone else doesn't care for - being a woman, being black, or being gay in this case. If government is going to recognize a legal joining of two individuals, then no restrictions should be placed on such a joining. From my perspective all such restrictions are bigotry of one form or another - we either have equal rights in this country or we don't and last I checked, gays were people too. All the male/female business is strictly religious - gays don't procreate and if religious folks don't want gay people in their families then they should quit having them. EDIT: Don't ask, don't tell was a terrible idea - simply forced both gays and the military into a ridiculously untenable position - better to deal with it one way or the other out in the open. States rights in gay marriage is a lot like don't ask don't tell and this is another area where the gay vs. racial thing join - if you're going to let majorities in states apportion constitutional or legal guarantees of this order then you might just as well roll back to the days when states could sanction interracial marriage bans or outlaw being black as a 'free person' for that matter.

A) More rovian tactics of redefinition - complete bullshit on every level B) There are both atheistic and theistic existentialist C) Is a cultural and societal choice I and few I know subscribe to, but which afflicts religious people as badly as any other All in all a pretty jumbled and twisted grab bag of ideas you've got strung together there.

Any time you're worrying or wondering about a rope it's time to replace it. On the otherhand, if it's seen no, or only a few, lead falls, the sheath is intact, and you can't feel any problems when running your fingers firmly down the length of it, then I'd be happy to take it off your hands anywhere under about eight years old. But as Bill says skinny ropes (sub 10m) don't hold up very long and there are some sheath constructions which last longer than others. A Mammut 10.2 SuperSafe is about the ultimate rope as far as I'm concern and it's the only rope I use in the sub-11 category when I'm doing anything dicey or with sharp edges.

You're right, I have zero tolerance for racism, sexism, homophobia, and religious fundamentalism. In those cases I don't believe there is a 'third way' and I have no respect for the values associated with them or the people who hold those beliefs - I do not and will not acknowledge any legitimacy of another 'side' on such issues - quite the contrary, I consider them explicitly dangerous to our nation. You can choose to peacefully co-exist, accomodate, and entertain such bigotry and fundamentalism, I reject it out-of-hand.

Fixed, is the only way pins should be used in rock climbing outside of some rare aid exceptions and even those have been the focus of clean aid efforts for several decades. Pounding pins absolutely is part of the climbing experience, but removing them on anything but some alpine routes and the rare aid line shouldn't be. On non-alpine crags pins should only be used as fixed pro if they're going to be applied - we've been past the point of using pins as per-climb pro on non-alpine free routes for decades. There are non-alpine, free climbing, fixed placements where Lost Arrows and Bugaboos can apply, essentially none need angles. However, in solid Oregon basalt there is little point in fixing anything other than medium and long Lost Arrows, Bugaboos, and soft Euro spades - shorter pins won't stay fixed, knifeblades will corrode. Again, aid climbers have been striving to eliminate pins from their repetoire for decades and even in aid climbing pin racks are so small many argue any necessary should be fixed in that venue as well, but even there are inevitably used excessively, hence clean up efforts such as on Zodiac.

Having climbed at both Traprock and Diablo I'd disagree with your statement about the former and agree with the one about the latter. Hell, Beacon would be absolutely perfect with zero bolts from my perspective. But the clock isn't running backwards out there and what's done is done. If you can establish and maintain a bolt-free crag anywhere in Oregon given its rock quality then more power to you. Also, I have some concern relative to your comments on pins - if you meant it is alright to place and remove pins over the course of a climb or subsequent climbs of a route then I would strongly disagree. If you're going to hammer a pin, then use some skill and judgment - but permanently fix it.

How can a person be this blatantly bigoted and blind to it? There is nothing more to the issue than allowing gays to marry - nothing. All that 'much more' IS the bigotry. Following your pathetic line of logic would return us to the days when states could outlaw interracial marriage so as not to infringe on racists' 'right' to raise their kids with the correct 'upbringing' free of gov't imposed mind-control. This is exactly why religious fundamentalism - anywhere and of any kind - is so dangerous to human rights and free, democratic nations.

Bill, did I miss something? Why do I suddenly feel like Geronimo on Columbus Day...

1778 - 'free' [white] men get rights 1865 - blacks [in theory] get basic rights 1870 - minorities [in theory] get to vote 1920 - women get to vote 1965 to present - blacks fight for the rest of their equal rights 1967 - interracial marriage rights recognized 1969 to present - gays fight for equal rights Could it be a trend? Could it be our history? Could it be bigots are just afraid of our history because bigots of one stripe or another have attempted to block every one of these milestones in U.S. history.

Whew, glad that didn't last too long...

STP - the logical, legal, constitutional, and common sense failings of your entire tract are too numerous to detail, but - even leaving aside the inanity and ignorance inherent in the 'determined vs. behavioral' point - the overarching debacle of what you keep writing is the classic [Rovian] approach to turning bigots and racists into victims. It constantly amazes my how you folks on the right rail against 'big government' and 'government in our lives' on one hand and then can't wait to impose government at every turn when it suits what I consider your decidedly anti-American religious and social agendas. Hey, if you, like the Cheneys, Gingrichs, and any number of other folks on the right don't like gays and gay behavior, then for god's sake ST[O]P HAVING AND RAISING THEM! Again, you whole sad litany is a wolf of ignorance and bigotry attempting to pose as a victimal sheep bleeting and bleeting about how 'put upon' you and fellow white suburbanites are - pathetic and weak at best, relentlessly insulting and dangerous at worst.

This is one of those rare, almost-too-difficult-to-take moments when I'm in complete agreement with Kev - well said.

As I understand it, the accident happened to a party which included two brothers, the wife of one of the brothers, and the children of one of the brothers. One of the brothers and the wife were the only ones involved in the accident itself.

We'll have to wait for either an official WSP analysis or a statement from the survivor. It's don't believe it's even clear at this point whether they were climbing or sport rappelling. Everyone should remain patient at this point relative to the details. What is abundantly clear is that everyone should probably review how they think and operate when around edges and tops of climbs.

I have, long ones. The first in my twenties because climbing really just didn't have any emotional 'bang-for-the-buck' left for me. When I got around to it again a few years later I had a grueling and semi-horrifying journey back given I had previously been climbing at a .13 level and doing lots of FA's. Nothing is more humiliating than being humongous and clueless staring up the first moves of your own climb and not having even an inkling of an idea of what to do or a chance of doing it. But since then I've been in and out of climbing a dozen times including this past winter. In a perverse way I now actually enjoy losing the weight and getting back in shape. Take Sunday for instance. I did the first [trad] lead of the season on a climb I could free solo with my eyes closed last October - Sunday I backed off the approach to the crux six times shaking like a leaf. Not even the crux - just the setup for the crux. I did finally push through it, but the fat-boy-on-a-rope deal is humbling. But like I said, I've been through the loop so many times now I kind of like it. I have the big advantage of having done it enough times that I don't have to worry about whether or not I can do it - whether I can come back or not to top shape - I know I can. It is a challenge though, and not a small one, losing 15-30 pounds (which I've variously done) and going from a desk to a 5.xx can be just as hard and rewarding by itself. On the otherhand it's all a pain in the ass and you're better not getting out of shape. How much of a challenge it is 'coming back' would be reflected in the stats if there were any, but the attrition rate each from age 25 on is pretty remarkable and really takes off in the early 30's as kids happen - most never return to climbing.

Wha dat? You clever old snake charmer! How much of the roll did you have and was that 14 or 12 gauge? Just kidding! Looks like you guys had a blast up there. You've really impressed me this past year with your persistence in getting out, onsight stepping up to some solid stuff, and just going about your business. Ok, the TRs are fun too...

I've heard and read more about the accident and it just seems particularly tragic from every conceivable angle (and not that all such accidents aren't tragedies). My utmost condolences to their families both of which sound dedicated to the notion of service to their communities.

From the sound of it I suspect it was an unfortunate case of not having much experience on top of climbs and with edges. To some this may not seem to be a thing one needs to 'think' about explicitly, but in reality there are some basic protocols for operating safely around a cliff top and edge. This is also an aspect of climbing folks don't get any exposure to climbing in gyms so it can be a very new experience their first few times outside and it's easy to underestimate the dangers involved. Another thing which can play in to such accidents is that climbing these days if a very social activity with a lot of non-climbing personal interaction, this can present significant and subtle hazards even when folks are operating from the ground, but such distractions can be exceedingly dangerous operating near an edge which requires constant focus and deliberate coordination if anyone else is involved. I'm not saying any of the above played into this particular accident, but these are things worth remembering and are important to convey to new climbers on their first trips outdoors.

Well, we drive on socialst interstates and most of these guys are all for spending federal dollars to keep socialist wilderness roads open. And socialism? True class-cutting socialism comes in the form of a pandemic that quickly spirals out of control due to a lack of basic healthcare and the fact that we've all but disassembled our public health apparatus and infrastructure.

Simply put, we can go to the moon, deliver amazing fire-power anywhere in the world almost overnight, invent endless technology goodness, but somehow, somehow we can't manage to provide basic healthcare for all American's in an affordable manner. The notion that we can't provide the best healthcare in the world and do it faster and cheaper than anyone else on the planet is a lie. The only reason we don't is due to the mafia-like stranglehold insurance and pharmaceutical companies have over the system and their use of classic Rovian techniques to maintain that choke hold on the country. Until recently most corporations played along, but even they now realize they're at risk under the current system - that private insurance is a failure and burden U.S. businesses cannot and never will be able to afford. All of the obstacles are tied directly to what amounts to theft on a massive scale not unlike the what's gone on in the financial sector. Or at least that's half of the problem; the other half is the cummulative affects of diet, TV, obesity, and lack of exercise in our increasingly sedentary culture. U.S. Healthcare = FAIL - by any measure - and forget Canada, we are failing horribly compared to what we are capable of and our potential. So long as our healthcare systems is weighed down by a crushing administrative overhead, a parasitic insurance industry which delivers negative value, and is managed (gamed) to skim 'profits' out of the system, then we'll continue to decline as a nation both in quality of life and competitiveness. Let's put it another way, regardless of what you think of it, these clowns make the folks running our education system look like a crew of honest, hardworking, highly-efficient Einsteins by comparison.

Yer basic head exploding stuff...

Moof has it exactly right, cloves can cut, the alpine butterfly is what you want for that purpose, but it has it's downsides as underworld states. I sometimes butterfly into a 'sacrificial' piece that won't hold up and which is set just above a 'real' point of pro. But in general you're better off just rebelaying with a long skinny sling or rubberband. Edit: P.S. It pays to make sure your alpine butterfly knots are well-dressed, this isn't a knot to be sloppy with.

Ivan rebelaying periodically on the way up will keep the slack from running through your self-belay device. Heavy rubberbands girth hitched will do it the trick quite well or use longer skinny slings so they can ride up clean in a fall. Basically the same sort of rebelaying underworld is talking about to isolate around sharp edges, but for a different purpose.