JosephH

Unless there's miraculously more to the story then Bryan is relating, one can only guess had "cooler heads" prevailed at any point prior to his arrival on the scene then no bolts would have ever been sunk at all. I'd be curious to know just what anyone here finds redeeming about rapping for an anchor and then drilling back up to it that even makes it a question? How does this instance even make the leap from a ladder to an aid route, let alone something worthy of equivocating or agonizing over?

I haven't heard anyone talk shit at them - just discuss the merits of what they did. I don't think anyone should talk shit at them, but rather try to figure out what they were thinking, explain why it wasn't the best idea, and ask them to pull it. If they don't, and any of you Broughton folks still care, then go do it for them...

You were certainly up in arms a while back about someone bolting what you considered a "squeeze job" on a face out at Ozone - what was the problem and why would you object to more? Or on what basis would you object to these guys or someone else doing a spaid line on a face between a couple of yours given your lines clearly are underbolted for such purposes.

Not at all - rap and install anchor, go to base, drill / aid back up to anchor - period. Are you thinking there were mysterious attributes of the rock on that section of Broughtons or some special circumstances these gentlemen found themselves in which can and should imbue this affair with legitimacy? [ I'm basically just trying to figure out what would be substantially different between doing it at the Bat Wall and doing it on one of the Fremont Bridge pillars besides a shorter walk... ]

So are you saying you'd have no problem with more squeeze jobs out at Ozone...?

Kevin, I actually trust Bryan with my life when I climb with him, I'll take his word that he's accurately representing what he saw. Rap-bolting an anchor and then spaiding up to it is what he's recounted here. I don't need to go see it. Are you implying it's somehow a different then it would be on a tree, telephone pole, the bouldering wall below the road at the Butte, or a concrete bridge support just because it happened on a rock? I'm missing exactly what it is that's essential for me to see to understand what went on, or to decide it's an inappropriate application of bolting - or that it was wholly unnecessary in order to 'practice aid climbing' close to PDX.

Well, that's one vote for spaiding...

Tyler, nice set of tuning forks you got there, especially like the bugs - slick...!

So Ivan, what does that mean - "work themselves out" ? If by 'themselves' you mean the bolts, then I hope not - the idea is for them to hold tight in the rock and stay put. If you mean 'people', then it would seem there are only two paths a) everyone remains unrighteous, apathetic, too-tired-of-it-all, or too-busy-to-be-bothered and the bolts stay; or b) people get (lordy) 'righteous', take offense, remove the bolts, and patch the rock. I'm not really seeing an option 'c' here. But really (getting a bit 'righteous' and what all), is this what it's coming down too - that there are no 'bad' bolts? That once bolts go in they are protected by an entirely opposite righteousness - an indignation and exclamation of the "inhumanity of it all" at the mere suggestion maybe the bolts are inappropriate and should come out. I'm just guessing here, but is the prevailing idea these days that there's really no meaningful difference at all between rock and concrete, that "...this rock's for you...!", or is it just a matter of bolt-war weariness? And, following up on Nate's comment, the Butte, Broughton, Ozone, and Beacon all collectively have plenty of lines at all levels of difficulty to practice aid climbing on. Sounds like these guys were more interested in practicing bolting, or are really just into spaiding. Seems to me like a road cut, concrete wall, telephone pole, or even the bouldering wall below the road at the Butte would be more appropriate places for this sort of thing. At least that's my "righteous" view on it. And hell, who knows, I have no personal affinity for Broughton's and maybe, as some seem to be suggesting, none of the folks who do give a damn anymore so it's not a problem at all? P.S. It sure would be interesting to know what exactly their "research" consisted of - I'm guessing it didn't include walking into the the PRG and asking Gary, or posting here on cc for what folks thought of the idea.

Good going, you guys are all definitely hardmen for doing all that aid in the cold. Just so you know, I do have a stash of the Heavy Rap Hangers from Metolius, 13mm SS Hangers from Fixe, and SS bolts from Bill for Beacon. No need to buy anchors if you don't already have them - just give me a shout and I'll be happy to get some to you.

Ah, very good to hear that guys - way to go about it. The powers that be are pretty damn sensitive about this topic more than all the others combined. Really glad to hear you had a posse out for the drop! In general, we should work with the BRSP on drops that can potentially reach the tracks and they're usually pretty accomodating on coming down to help out with the lookout / verification duties. If anything were to ever damage the track and they didn't get a heads up on a deliberate drop that would likely be the end of days...

I think I know where you mean; there was a dubious looking bunch of rock up there from what I recall from one rap or another. My only real concern, for myself or anyone else trundling anything significant, is the railroad tracks. That far west you're relatively clean, but you should go down and check the tracks if there's ever any question at all about just where something went, bounced, or landed. Officially, we're technically not supposed to trundle anything big without talking to the BRSP first, but given it's this time of year and you folks have worked the pre-open cleanups I don't have too much concern. Please do keep it in mind in the future, though, particularly for anything on lines East of that one. Also, I do have a large, heavy tree planting dibble which will move large rocks if you know something that really is dangerous, but needs a nudge during this upcoming pre-open session.

Ivan and Geoff, good going - looks like a cold day out there! I'm looking forward to giving it another free go this coming year now that you guys have done the hard work. But where exactly was it the rocks you cleaned out come from - above the ledge, below it, or where?

You know you're a bunch of losers when you control all three branches of government yet fail to accomplish anything of significance beyond tainting the Constitution and enriching corporations at the expense of the condition of the nation and its people...

It ain't no stinking 'obby when yer shivering in the howling wind prussiking up a stuck set of ropes without enough slings at dusk - it's a bloody disease, mate...

Dave - good job on getting out and grabbing Adam's gear, real nice of you. I'm guessing it's still pretty stout out there - name of the game is definitely keep moving. Bill, I think it's mainly because I've done absolutely nothing but sit in my office chair or lay on my office lounge for three months programming and not doing anything more physical than pounding keys. Got too far out of shape, soft, and weak I think. Let's put it this way, after doing the Corner friday I tried to do FFA p1 three times downclimbing from the fourth move each time and then decided I couldn't get up to the pod without pro so bailed for YW.

That was a wise choice, there was no escaping it anywhere at Beacon...

Anyone do the corner yesterday (Monday)? Adam and co. would love to buy you a beer in exchange for the gear they had to leave in bailing from the Tree Ledge (see the lost and found forum thread)...

Would love to hear it, we'll have to grab a beer sometime...

Hi Adam, Ben and I really appreciated you and your partners letting us play through on Sunday. And let me just say you guys should feel pretty damn good about making it to the Tree Ledge in those conditions - actually battling from the top of the p2 slab up to the Tree Ledge was an epic endeavor. But, just so you know in the future, at the top of the SE Corner's p2 slab, you'd be better off going straight ahead 20' or so to the Young Warriors' p2 anchor to rap instead of heading up the last bit to the Tree Ledge. However, if you do go on up to the Tree Ledge, then you'd be better off bravely soldiering on up to Grassy Ledges to do the 'standard' rap back to down to the Corner's start. Rapping the tree in the best of conditions sucks and the current state of the tree's root structure probably makes rapping it in that strong of a wind a dicey proposition at best. Hopefully you'll get your gear back, but either way, you guys had a first class day and epic out there, got yourselves down and out, and you'll remember and learn from the adventure. So good on you guys for getting out and after it regardless!

Cool, it wouldn't go free with that shrub in the pod, so glad you're after it - good eyes in getting on it. Jim also gave me a belay for a shot at the one to the left of it by continuing to traverse out left past the start of your line. Don't remember much about where I was headed with that one, but recall the traversing got pretty damn interesting.

A party of three were kind enough to let ranger Ben and I pass at the p2 anchor on the Corner yesterday. For one of them it was their first multi-pitch climb; not sure they knew what they were in for up at the top of the slab, but I do hope things went well for them either way. Ivan, if you have your back against the rap tree up on the ledge and are facing the rock, is the line you're talking about to the left or the right of you? If it's to the left then I'm glad you're cleaning it out and we should try for an ffa as well when it reopens.

All that, and I spasm my back getting out of my tights in the bathroom - there is no god, only demons who punish sloth and laziness..

Good on you Moof!!! It was goddamn stout out there today and I bet even more so yesterday. It was probably the highest sustained winds I've done the Corner in. 50-60kts sustained coming up to the Tree Ledge - just turning the corner at the top of the slab was desperate. Poor Ben waited for his moment to pull the corner and got hit by a gust that ripped his hood and helmet off which then proceeded to choke him as it buffeted in the wind like a scoop. I normally belay standing out on the face anchored off the big block you go around as you step up to the Tree Ledge; today I could barely maintain that stance and rope handling was equally problematic. Up on the corner ridge notch where you first come up it was like forcing your way through a wall - rock steady 50-60kts going up and over the notch and ridge ramp with massive gusts. I normally belay sitting on the saddle notch at the top of the last rock coming up from YW, but basically got blown ass over tea kettle down towards YW before I abandoned that idea and wedged myself low in the notch below the level of the piton up there. Even there I had to brace / wedge myself in place and sit on the rope as I took it in. The corner ridge ramp itself was a real challenge - hell, just getting started on it was hard and I had to set like five or so pieces of pro that would hold up-and-to-the-left to keep the rope from yarding over the edge and into the void of snags below. The 'climbing' was more like a scraping crawl between 'lulls' in the gusts and 'three-points-on-the-rock' really meant something today. Friday we did it car-to-car in about 1:20, today it took 2:20 and Ben was moving pretty damn good following. That's the first time I've roped up for the three pitches above the Corner Tree Ledge in I can't remember when - today a belay felt real nice, though.

Thanks Bill. But hell, I'm barely getting out compared to Ivan, Geoff, and Seann & co. Pretty much into the 'last hurrah' this week before the close...