selkirk

Oops, the shoes are already back, so more like a 1 week turn around time.

"compound the original mistake" First off, how dare you question Fred's choice of bolt locations! That's sacrilage, and calls for immediate bannination!! Second, compounds implies that it makes the problem worse. Which it doesn't. It would solve the problem of a an unsafe belay, with minimal impact. It would still serve as a bottleneck if multiple parties were on the route. Solving that would take another bolt or two

Yep, Ramuta's downtown ships the climbing shoes to Montana to John Ramuta to resole. The time frame seems slower than I remember ( A friends have been out for about a week and a half, and aren't back yet.) I imagine the quality will be the same though.

That's a very insightful question.

Do you really want to get into the the "Is it better to sling and damage a tree, than throw in 2 bolts for an anchor discussion?" I can go there if you'd really like to

Yep. Two belay bolts. (Was at the end of 3rd or 4th pitch depending on how you break it up). The argument seems to be whether they are necessary for a belay. If you knew to look for it, and knew to save right gear, there is supposed to be a gear bealy 15 ft (or meters?) higher. (I can't personally verify the belay and don't know whether a 50m rope would stretch to it). Part of the problem is that there's quite a variety of beta floating around and some of it points to using those bolts as the belay.

My preference would be to replace them. They may not be ideal, and they may not be needed by anyone who's read the "ideal" beta and/or climbed the route before. However, I'd really hate to see somebody get fucked expecting to find bolts, and instead finding a blank corner above a slightly runnout face with marginal pro, not having the appropriate gear for a belay at the stance above. (If their rope reaches that far).

Those bolts are probably 45 m out from the bucket/tree above the 5.9 finger cracks above a slightly runnout face. On a 50m rope, that's about where I'm starting to look for a good belay. If the next belay ledge is reachable with a 50m rope, and is protectable, with what would be left over from a stanard rack, after protecting the preceeding pitch then the bolts aren't necessary. I don't think it's safe to belay from those bolts, and no one seems to contest that. It's certainly not the most comfortable place for a belayy, and may not be the "ideal" place. However the reality is that there is a reasonable amount of beta pointing towards using those bolts as a belay, and even without beta, a completely reasonable set of decisions leads to belaying from those bolts. Further people are using them to belay from as they aren't aware that there is (may be?) a better location 15 ft above. I know the beta the folks in my party had last year pointed to those bolts, and we had a pretty broad range of experience levels, and had done a reasonable amount of reading. Until you've been on a route, beta is often less the clear, so I dont' know about you, but I always take it with a grain of salt and try to make sure that the path I'm taking, and the decisions i'm making are a reasonable, in addition to hopefully following the beta. (I don't actually remember seeing the better ledge immediately above, as at that point I had just left the previous (marginal) belay, and was focused on moving upwards). Do I think they're in a good place for a belay? Maybe not. Will I use them in the future? No. Like Pope, I'll take/preserve the appropriate gear for the next belay, and hope it's only 15 ft above. Does that mean that people won't continue to belay from them out of lack of knowledge about the route? Nope

If all beta was perfect and everyone had climbed the route in the "ideal" fashion the bolts wouldn't be needed at all. It must be nice living in a perfect world. Seeing as that isn't the case, and seeing as they do still get used by people who don't realize that there is a gear belay above (is it 15m or 15 ft? That's a huge difference, and is the gear belay piece specific or is it reasonable to be able to build a belay there with whatever is left over from the previous 5.8 dihedral / 5.7 face pitch?). And just because It's been climbed countless times how it is now, doesn't mean that belaying from those bolts is safe or that they should be left. People get away with all kinds of unsafe practices in climbing because 95% of the time all of our ropes and gear is purely backup, and is never tested. God forbid those things should take a direct fall. Oh, and I'd love to know how replacing 2 bad bolts with 2 good bolts qualifies as "connecting the silver dots". Doesn't Orbit effectively connect the trees for the first half of the route anyway? Would you like me to paint them so they're not shiny I have yet to be convinced that Snowcreek wall doesn't attract inexperienced climbers. That inexperienced climbers (myself included) don't end up using those bolts. That pulling the bolts entirely or leaving them as they are is sufficiently safe. Or that replacing the bolts with good hardware in any way changes the experience of the route.

So did it pre date or post date the Blues Brothers? And of course lets not forget the Honey Hole up on Capital Hill.

Do any of you serious gear heads know if the DMM Xeno and DMM Fly picks are interchangeable? TIA Josh

Am I the polar bear or the dirty old man? dirty old polar bear?

Yep, those are the ones, not the ones that are only 25 m or so above the bush. Those ones are still at least silver colored. And with a 50m meter rope you either get CBS's much maligned 1/2 pitch to the end of dihedrals, or up into the neighbourhood of the shitty bolts.

Stands up on soap box. ahem, ahem. Why do I think they should be replaced? Are they trustworthy? No Were the bolts good, when they were first placed? Yes Do we all pretty much agree that preserving the first ascentionists style is worthwhile? Yes So if the early ascent had good bolts for a belay there, then what is the hangup with replacing two existing bad bolts with two new good bolts? If anything it returns the route to an experience that is closer to the early ascents. In my opinion this alone is enough justification to update the bolts. For the hell of it, lets keep going though. Is it a logical place to stop and belay from? Yes Is it the "BEST" place to belay from? in retrospect, now. Do people belay from there on a regular basis? Yes Will people continue to belay from there on a regular basis? Yes Is there sufficiently good gear at that stance such that the bolts aren't needed for a belay there? No If the bolts are pulled, will people expect them to be there? Yes Will experienced climbers be ok without them? Experienced climbers should be on more challenging routes, but yes. Then again, experienced climbers should be fine regardless. I know I was nearing the end of my rope when I hit those bolts. Does someone want to measure how far it is from the bush above the 5.9 up to those bolts? Does this route attract inexperienced leaders? Yes Will newbies be ok without them? Depends on the beta they happend to get, the length of their rope and their remaining rack. Let's all hope so though. Do people always know the "Optimal" break up of the pitches on a climb? No So were back to Is this a logical place to stop and belay from? Yes Has anyone died there because the bolts failed failed? No. Would the bolts sustain a high factor fall? Anyone want to go tie into one of those and take a factor two getting off the anchor? I remember one micro nut in the crack above so it might slow you down a bit. So keep your fingers crossed it doesn't happen. Have inexperienced climbers died on Snow Creek Wall? Yes. Is it just about a roadside crag that attracts crowds of inexperienced leaders? Yep, alpine climb my ass. My beef is that a completely reasonable set of decisions, beta, and skillset appropriate to the climb leads to people who haven't climbed the route before to finding it reasonable to belay from those bolts, and those bolts are shitty. (And apparently I'm neither the only one who thinks the bolts are shitty, or that it's reasonable to end up belaying there.) Is that a good enough explanation of why I think they should be replaced? Well that and for some reason it gets under my skin that experienced climbers feel the need to inflict shitty bolts on inexperienced climbers. Your all right, experienced climbers don't need these. Nobody has died yet because those bolts pulled. Climbers who have done the route before don't need them, yada, yada, yada. Bully for you for being an experienced climber who's already done it and now knows the optimum way to break up the pitches. That did me a load of good last year. Maybe I should have hired one of you as a guide to show me the "proper way" to climb orbit. I'm alos sure your collected wisdom has done more than a few folks who climbed it for their first time this year a whole load of good. I also don't understand why thought of REPLACING shitty bolts gets people panties in a twist. Were not talking retrobolting pithces or adding new fixed gear where none currently exists. Were not talking about opening the door to grid bolting, or power drills in the wilderness. Were talking about replacing shitty fixed gear, likely from the first ascent (which was good fixed gear then), with good fixed gear now. In general I'm big fan of replacing shitty fixed gear that already has tradition on a given route with good fixed gear. I don't really care if it's belay anchor, rappel stations (Thanks to whomever replaced the shitty bolts on top of Kangaroo Temple.) fixed pins, you name it. The fact that Pope came out on the side of replacing them speaks volumes in my opinion. steps off soap box.

you incorrigable tease. So what's the scandal today? Its' way too slow here today not to find out.

hmmmm, good idea for someone WHO'S ALREADY CLIMBED THE ROUTE. Not so useful for someone on their first trip up Orbit and doesn't know that you absolutely can't belay from the bush just above the 5.9 finger cracks or you'll be screwed.

Holy Shit! The Pope says bolt it! It's official, I win the argument, hands down, no contest, thank you very much, and I'll be here all week Thank you Pope, that's been my whole stance. Every on here says, ground up onsight, on gear, is the purest way to climb, and that Beta minimizes the experience and lessens it. Those bolts may not be necessary to someone who ALREADY KNOWS THE ROUTE, but for someone without a huge amount of Beta or someone who has already done the route, it's entirely reasonable to end up needing to belay from that stance (it's at about 50m, from the belay at the base of the two dihedrals below the 5.7 face), and those bolts are shitty. In addition the size of gear required for there or the dihedral above it is awfully specific, and if you don't have it your screwed. It's fine for me (and all of you) to climb it now and not use those bolts because we've climbed it before and know all the options! For someone without MattP and bwrts vast experience with the options on Orbit, whose on their first trip up it's very different story. You like the history, then leave the old ones in but it deserves to knew pieces there.

There's 1 reasonable nut placement (assuming you haven't used that size on the previous pitch) A reasonable horn (so long as you don't pull up), and a marginal flaring blue TCU at that stance and of course two shitty bolts:p So there is gear, it's just less than inspiring for hanging belay, and god forbid 2 parties should stack up there (Like we did the first time I climbed Orbit). There's definitely only room for 1 belay at that stance right now. Granted it's an intermediate stance, and not critical if you've climbed the route before and know the "Prefered Cascade Hardmen" certifed belay stations, but going up blind it's an easy place to end a pitch. REPLACING 2 existing shitty bolts would have sped us up by at least an hour as it would have been possible to build a second belay that's reasonable so I could have brought up my 2nd. Instead of waiting for the folks in front of us to completely clear the belay. I still think it would be worth updating those two bolts. It's not like were talking about retrobolting the whole damn thing, and it's not like were talking about a remote crag, it's the Snow Creek Wall for cryin out load, it's damn near a roadside crag

Very punny cbs

I can think of a couple rusty pieces o' sh** at a certain belay on Orbit Just make sure the local hardmen don't trundle your ass.

You win.... That blows goats The least the could have done was to do it at the beginning of the summer when the weather doesn't suck.

I did, but I didn't get any pictures of it That's why I was hoping someone else might have a couple! It's nice. Good finger locks, reasonable feet, takes small to med nuts really really well, could damn near lead it with a double set of nuts and single set of TCU's (though I just about carried an aid rack ). Was very pleased to get it clean as it's close to my limit

I've got a pair of the Rudy Ekynox Sk and love them. Nicest thing is that you can get prescription inserts for them They dont' provide a total face seal like some glacier glasses, but it's pretty good, and I've dragged them successfully up a couple minor local glaciers.

Do I sense a little animosity there archie?