ashw_justin

Dang man, I need a European girlfriend who climbs!

Mountaineering it is not, that is for sure. My favorite analogy for sport climbing, coincidentally, is lift skiing: man-made alteration to the land for the convenience of those wishing to pursue the sport. It takes something away from the authentic experience, and defaces the land a little, but by an large it is viewed as acceptable and necessary by the vast majority of participants. People don't sport climb to pretend to be mountaineers, they sport climb because it's a safer and more convenient way to climb some rock. Someone has said this before, but I'm not convinced that the Alpental area is not a good place for winter cragging. It's really not somewhere you go to be alone. Honestly, why do people go to the Tooth to climb? Perhaps because it's easy to get to, not very remote or wild. It's a convenient place to climb. Winter sportos pick that area for the same reason. Really, what else do you expect from a recreation area accessed directly from a major freeway?

We await the TR and photos/video.

Those 8 seconds could be the most profound moments of your life. There's something about facing death that makes life and reality feel so much more vivid and meaningful. On the other hand the pain and suffering of death I'm sure is usually horrible. So being able to confront one's own death, but without having to suffer? That may very well be a good way to die. Of course given the choice, I'd rather live...

This is where the thread was going before everybody got involved in their little personal issues. People need to learn how to turn the other cheek for the benefit of the greater good. (I'm not naming names or anything...) So how about it? The draw issue is complicated. No single person takes responsibility for them. Usually they are left up with the intention that others will use them, so the person who puts them up feels no responsibility to take them down. People who use them feel that they are someone else's, so they leave them alone. Probably the only time they come down is if someone feels they need to be replaced, or someone wants to use their own gear. So really there is no way the draws will ever disappear unless the route is deemed inactive, and someone goes and takes them down for this reason. On a sport route this is pretty much never. Now this is just my opinion, but I think that on a winter mixed route, the draws should come down as soon as the line is melted out. That is unless it's one of those wierd crags where people sport climb with ice gear in the summer, in which case that's not mixed climbing, it's A0. ps. Specific case, if it's a "project" i.e. somebody is marking their territory... the same rules should apply, and if they are broken, it's piss at your own risk.

Wouldn't want to waste those $1,000 components by actually pedaling.

Now those are some lazy people. Idiotic, well, that depends on how you look at it. "Dude, it's a downhill bike!"

I thought Muir was a good scene for checkin out the ladies?! Ah well screw that then, I don't want to go to Muir any more.

Oh I forgot we were still on topic. Sorry 'bout that. I thought it was already agreed that the bolts are okay, bolting mixed climbs is okay, and bolting climbs that can't be protected traditionally is okay. Or did I miss something?

This may be selfish of me, but I'd like to thank Merv_Griffin for his dedication and verbosity in responding to everyone's comments. It's rare to find a cc.com memeber with the tenacity and forum ethic exhibited here, and his work is a shining example to those of lesser capacity to post. For the true virtuoso of the keyboard leaves no caveat unexplored, no distraction unflirted, and no insult unanswered. Special care is also given to the proper citation format, using quote boxes, bold-face emphasis, and quotation marks. For this gift, we are humbly greatful, for perusing the extensive works of our fellow poster constitutes the pinnacle of our daily activities. Hero, may your keystrokes never cease!

Pucker up to this and I'll give you some spray... BTW I couldn't go to Muir that day, so it makes me even more pissed that you're talking shit about something that I didn't even get to do! I was gonna learn how to ski. You see, even snowboarders can ski Muir!

WTF you retards since when is this a competition? Does the thought of someone skiing in late summer threaten you? Does the notion that someone can have fun on skis any time of the year make you uncomfortable? Shit, this is Muir we're talking about. Blinf infants can ski it. Has anyone suggested otherwise? Eat a

Nah, the conservatives cuss and threaten violence.

Now we're talking! That's a good idea, thanks.

Or not bumped. But don't try to tell me that football players don't also act. Encroachment, false start, pass interference, holding, you name it... And another thing, why the hell do they have 67 or whatever players on the sidelines for a 22-man game. What, aren't there enough breaks in the game for people to rest? (60min playing time = 3hrs real time ) There's what, 25 guys on a rugby team for 15 positions, they play offense AND defense, and an 80-minute game lasts less than 2 hours.

...which is clearly linked to Iraq!!!

...which are CLEARLY linked to Iraq.

A trail redpoint is the first time you hike successfully lead hike it without getting lost. Pinkpoint if any flagging tape is encountered.

I'll never give in to the dark side!

Oh great, Florida is gonna fuck everything up again. I can't wait for all the bullshit that'll go down there this time.

and so ash has spoken!! all hail ye you climb the way you want to, and others will do the same, mmmmkay? RuMR, you have the mutant sick climbing strength. You can send things that I only dream of. I would like to see amazingly strong climbers like you set a better example for younger/newer climbers like myself by redpointing as it was originally intended. I wouldn't have brought up this business if it wasn't relevant--somebody has a problem with pre-hung draws. That's the way that somebody "climbs the way they want," but at the expense of others. As for the repointing rant, I know I'm not the only climber who's confused that the definition of a redpoint suddenly changes somewhere around 5.13.

Right on. He wasn't clipping draws, but it's obvious he's wicked strong. How many climbers nowdays are hanging draws all over 5.14's (and lower) because they feel it's "the only way to climb the route" or "that's just how you do it." No, that's just how you do it if you're not strong enough. That's why it's rated 5.14. Because it's frickin ridiculously hard to climb, much less redpoint. Anyway, I don't know if Alex Huber thinks that pinkpointing=redpointing, but I hope that someone that strong would be able to trade a meaningless number for some true style. The one valid argument to leaving the draws up, is it's a real pain in the ass to take them down, especially while projecting. So I say fine, leave them up if you're actively working the route. But take them down when it's time to send, and take them down unless the route is being worked actively/frequently. For example, Little Si. There's always somebody there trying to lead Chronic, the hung draws are constantly being used, by many different people. On top of that, it's a well-developed sport crag, and nobody there has a problem with it. Aside from the safety issue I have no objection to draws hanging on something like that. But I still think that a real redpoint should involve cleaning the route and placing your own draws, even on a pre-hung route. I personally will not consider climbing on pre-hung draws to be a repoint, no matter what grade I am climbing. It's a very simple definition. You can't redpoint it? Fine, go for the pinkpoint. It's still a great accomplishment there's no shame in it (unless you have something against "pink" ). Now we're talking about bolted projects popping up along trails. It's not a sport crag, and there's only one guy(?) supposedly "working" this thing. This is the kind of situation where if you don't see somebody working the route, you shouldn't see their draws there either. (ps. What's that? The bolts are out of reach? I heard that some routes are actually bolted with pre-hung draws in mind. This is retarded and should not be done.) -Justin, uber-sporto-5.11-climber.

This talk of wilderness boundaries, regulations, and authorities begs the question: can climbers self-govern their own ethics, or do we need the government telling us how to climb?

I honestly don't believe this is about visual impact. It's about newfangled sporto-mixto climbers showing obliviousness or a lack of respect for what other climbers feel is acceptable. Just because you're strong, doesn't mean you have a special right to hang stuff wherever you want. People will respect that you're projecting something but this does not mean you own the rock or the route. And I'd just like to reiterate that pinkpunting is wrong, mmmkay, and the world's top climbers should set a better example for the rest of us by nutting up. No wussing on bolt climbs=no draw problems.