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He has every right to express his opinion any way he wants. Or have you forgotten about freedom in your diatribe? What's next, "love it or leave it"? Please. No, my point is that anyone can have an opinion on the war, politics, Bush whatever, but that he shouldn't generalize that someone isn't allowed to be proud of our country because we are "baby killer's" in his eyes. In fact, one of the more to the point statements in my diatribe was that living in the US is great because we can all express opinions freely without suffering dire consequences. Don't believe the same could be said of pre-war Afghanistan. So, while it is tragic that 9 Afghanistan children died, our country isn't such a bad place in comparison to alternatives. Heck, we are even free to leave if we dont love it. How cool is that. I just think that feeling disenfranchised because you didn't like the last elections and then complaining is a defeatest mentality. One possible alternative is to try to be part of positive change rather than picking on people who are proud of their country. You have the right to think I'm full of it too.

Agree, my views of the world are very simplistic. And am lucid enough to realize the world doesn't work the way I wish it did. Some more insight into my simple brain. How hard is to too hard to work to take care of someone you love? How many jobs are too many and how hard would you look for a job that offers health care benefits if health care is what is needed for a family member? What is too big a sacrifice to pay for medication if that is what is needed? Certainly giving up all luxuries and vices is not too much to ask. Show me someone who has absolutely done everything in their power to make ends meet and still can't and I'm all for giving them help. So, no, I wouldn't turn away someone without health care because they couldn't afford it. But, I want to know they couldn't afford it and aren't just dodging their own responsibility or looking for someone else to pick up the tab. My experience is that for every bad luck story there is an equal or greater # of people who don't take responsibility and are looking for the easy solution to their problems. So, yes, I would turn away those who are lazy or negligent in taking responsibility for their own lives. On the violent crime thing, I guess we can agree to disagree. Having had two close friends who were murdered senslessly, I can't understand people who don't see a valid connection between crime, resposibility and punishment. It doesn't have to be capital pushishment, but again, my simple brain can't see any way how someone who commits murder doesn't forfeit the basic rights assoicated with humanity and doesn't deserve punishment rather than understanding and care.

I'll jump in here......... This is absolutely the crux of my argument on liberalism. Liberals are generally people I admire due to the size of their hearts. They want everything to be happy and fair, which is cool. God bless them for their love of everyone else's family and all the down troden regular guys who never get a fair shake in life. Where I differ is that I take a point of view that I, not any government or some goverment funded program, am responsible for me and my well being. And, I am also responsible for my immediate and extended family. If I lose my job, it isn't the government's problem and I don't expect to have taxpayers feel sorry for me and give me money. If I dump a cup of hot coffee in my lap, I'm an idiot, it isn't McDonald's fault for giving me the hot coffee I paid for at the drive thru window. If I screw up and commit a crime, I am responsible... not some evil corporation, president Bush or un-seen chemicals in the water. If I have a family member who is mentally ill, it isn't the government's reasponsibility or tax payers dollars job to take care of them. It is my moral and natural obligation. Sure, mental health care may be expensive, but it doesn't fit in with my value system that you find a way to take care of a family member, including mentally challenged people, only if it is inexpensive or the government pays all the bills. If everyone focused more energy on taking care of themselves and their own families, we wouldn't need our government to be the white knight of domenstic problems. And, for all of those people who think that people who commit savage violent crimes shouldn't be pushined because they might be mentally ill... here is another thought. I will concede that anyone who chops up anyone else with a sword is crazy as hell. But, as much as it pains me to say it, I'm with Trask on this, I think it is insane not to punish folks who commit this kind of crime. Seems way crazier to me to have innocents pay bills to keep sword wielding lunatics, in some nice place where they can receive lots of therapy and drugs. Bet the family of the woman who got choped up, whether liberal or conservative by nature, agree.

I don't know that the families would respond well to your flag waving, as they bury the children killed with your tax dollars. Assume your comment was a troll for right wingers, but here are some thoughts anyway..... You are either very young, naive or stupid if you are shocked that something like this could happen in a war. People die in wars. Sucks, but that is what wars are about. In WWII millions of non combatants were killed in fighting and bombings that made no pretense at avoiding civilians. 9 kid's is sad, but not a reason to decide America sucks. It is your choice to hate Dubya. But, I'm with other posters, either excerise your right to do something positive to steer the country in the direction you think it should go or STFU..... you whining Dixie Chick wannabe. 3rd world countries have more than there fair share of sorrow. Buried on page 25A in every newspaper are stories of thousands of deaths due to disease, genocide, natural disasters, etc. I'm sure, those of you who have a hate of our president that is so deep and so irrational, can blame all the evils of the world on Bush will find a way to use these as reasons to be ashamed of our country too. You should feel blessed to live in a country where your point of view is tolerated and think twice before you decide all 282 million of us and our system of government is flawed. In Afrcapistan, a bleeding heart like you wouldn't live past their teens either and it wouldn't be an accident. Final thought. Can't help but think our generation is soft and spoiled rotten. Thank god Cro-Magnon man was a little more resiliant or man would have died out and the planet would be dominated by snaffles.

:dedhorse: Where's the dead horse gremlin? This is another thread that shows up at least twice a year. I did do a search since I figured this topic came up from time to time, but didn't find anything recent. Appreciate opinions from those who posted. Thanks for using your climbing down time, at work boredom to share some ideas. If I didn't know better, I would have guessed that everyone who posted here works for Bibler. Tents must if this many folks are providing the

Tired of taking chances with my 3-season tent in high alpine or having to climb with someone who has a more bomb proof tent. Here is what I'm looking for: - I figure you get what you pay for, so getting the cheapest isn't my 1st concern. But is something good is on sale or close out, I won't turn down a bargain - 2 person, either plenty of room inside for people and gear or enough vestibule to get the job done, 2 openings for ventialiation, particularly for approach... lower camps would be nice - Pitches quick... don't want to mess with a damn science project when it is cold and windy out - Doesn't have to be the lightest available, but most of my climbs are a couple days, so it isn't like I need a home on the glacier for week long + trips So, all of you folks who have plunked down the big bucks for a 4 season shelter, what should I buy?

I bought this DVD last week and it's pretty cool. There's some pretty sick footage but it's really short - about 30 minutes or so. Plus the commentary is in German or something. Still definitely worth $5 though.

simple, dogs are not too aware what's above them. people are wering crampons, so what lambone is talking about happens often enough. plus i am agains dogs in climbing areas period. everyone's dog is the coolest animal by itself, get them into a group.... just look at smith on busy weekend. they get into pack for food, shit, beg when you eat....all sort of crap. Cool. Personally, I don't mind having other people's dogs around the crag as long as they aren't distracting my belayer. I can see what you mean about the base of an ice route not being a pooch friendly place, though.

How come dogs don't belong at ice climbing areas? Why is that different than bringing fido to the local rock crag? ... Or do you think dogs should keep away from rock climbing areas as well?

Sheesh.. what's next? Elderly women bridging cultural differences while they explore revolutionary quilting techniques? I guess I can just hang out at the bar while they're showing the lame shit.

Am I reading that correctly? The grand prize winner is a film about a soccer match???

I wonder where nudists keep their keys? ... or their nudist license?

Well climbed and well written! Had me hook, line and sinker on the Mary Ann bit. Thought you were going to hook up with some hotty after the climb and it turned out to be somebody's granny.

A 60% increase in "the number of Americans scaling cliff walls and slopes" doesn't exactly equate to a 60% increase in the number of climbers out on a given day. I'd venture to guess that many of that 60% increase are folks who only hit the crag a couple of times a year.

I like a cross between a cave and mounded igloo. Pile a bunch of snow on top of a drift and then dig it out. After hollowing out the mound, you've got a central area with a high ceiling and then you dig sleeping benches in the drift. I love hanging in a snow cave but it's hard to keep your gear warm and dry.

We did the gumby route (North Ridge) on Sunday. Damn hot, but nice. Sketch, if you approach from the North, take this advice. Rather than parking at Big Lake/Patjens Lake trailhead, take a forest service road over to PCT trail head over to the NE of Big Lake instead. No turns on PCT to get mixed up on and straight easy shot to climbers trail cairn about 3 miles in. On an interesting note, on the way up, passed a girl and her large dog (white fang looking critter) heading back down. On top, checked out the summit register and sure enough, she and the dog had summitted. Now, I know the scrambling on the North ridge is easy, but there were a couple places I wouldn't want my dog sending unless he/she were on a rope. Nothing like a big dog who climbs 4th/low 5th choss! Maybe she lured the pup up with HC

Sat = Mountain biking around Black Butte in central Oregon Sat night = camping, big fire and adult beverages Sun = Climbed easy route on Mt. Washington in Oregon chosscades on unseasonably warm day. Fun scramble and no crowds.

Agreed. It works. Sure you have noticed that to properly snug up a well tied 8, you have to hold the knot and pull on each of the 4 strands that make up the knot individually.... rope side, 8 to harness, harness back to 8 and tail side out. Putting the loops around the harness before reweaving the 8 means that when you hang dog or fall, the weight on the front side of the 8 pulls the loops snug, rather than transfering force back around to the other side of the knot and cinching it down hard. Loops are kind of like how the cowboys always just looped their reigns a few times around the hitching post and there is enough tension to keep their trusty side kick from running away. In the end, 2 parts of the knot pull tight instead of 3 and it is enough to make a dif. It is hard to explain, but it def. makes getting 8 untied after hanging, falling a ton easier. Try it in the gym this Winter.

Just look at that form!

Another good example of climbing ingenuity. My all-time favorite is still the beer can stove, though.

I like to leave my car at the office. They'll never tow it and someone might think I'm working overtime.

Hey Rad - We climbed this back in August and took the East Ridge variation up the summit pyramid for exactly that reason. We found the ridge to be very enjoyable climbing. Solid rock that took pro OK and had 2 or 3 rap stations already set up. We chose to simul-climb it with minimal pro, but you could easily climb it with active belays (obviously it would be much slower). The route we took was almost entirely on the ridge crest except once when we decided it would be easier to traverse out onto the south face a bit before climbing back up to the ridge. The ridge is mostly 4th class with a few very short steps where there is a move or two of low 5th. Maybe one spot where the move was 5.6 but it was right under a rap station. We descended unroped down the central gulley. Good luck!

Yep... we noticed on the fancy MRNP map (the one with the nice shading to enhance the contour feel of the topo lines) that that bump between The Castle and Unicorn was named Foss & since it had a name on that map, we decided to make it part of the plan. Added a little time, but not much. And, yes again..... topo maps show the Unicorn snow field as the Unicorn Glacier... mighty small glacier. June would be way easier as glissade = fun, picking your way down long fields of talus = tedious.

Oh yeah.... I remember you guys. Visions of you guys enjoying yourselves in the lodge scarfing down succulent roast pig plagued our thoughts all evening. Thanks, jerks. Just kidding..... I'm glad you guys had a good time.

Yeah, that was our original plan before we decided to complete the loop on bikes. We realized that if we biked from Longmire to Snow Lake it would be like 12 miles uphill and 3 miles downhill. That sounded like a total suckfest after such a long day. So we decided to reverse our route and end with a short uphill ride followed by a 45 minute coast back to the car. Much better way to end the day (and a nice way to work out the lactic acid in our legs)