Dane

Baruntse is a HUGE boot. Every bit the equal of the Spantik. For the Cascades and over one night out in the Canadian Rockies I would still stick with the Batura or the more durable Nepal Evo. Which is how I still judge which boot to use unless it is just bear ass cold out. Like -25C or lower. Multi day technical winter trips or for Denali it would be a great boot. It is not the boot I want to walk a long ways in. Will Sims just did a great review as well of the Batura on the UK Climbing web site. It is worth looking at. Glad you enjoyed the review!

Good link, thanks. Worth remembering Fusions come with the Fusion pick which is, as Will noted, BD's pick specifically for hard M climbing. The Laser pick is thinner and made specifically for water ice. The Titan pick is an extremely durable all around pick suitable for the rigors of hard alpine. Match the pick to your climb beforehand and you'll be much happier. Or mod the pick for your own use. That is good advice for any of the modern tools as most offer at least two picks with a number of subtle variations to choose from. A good hand file will offer even more options. Gadd: "The next 30M had some super nice ice--kinda thin, kinda detached, kinda dry, kinda wet, kinda steep, kinda lacking in pro, kinda what I needed. The new Fusions handled it well, but I'm going to change my picks out on those tools if I do any more serious ice climbing. The picks on the tools are made for drytooling so they have teeth on top; this makes 'em get stuck in the ice, which is not really what you want when run out on marginal gear. For hard drytooling you need the top teeth, and even on the M-whatever stuff low on the route the teeth were great for stein-pulls etc. Overall I was really happy with the tools, I'll need to put some more miles on the rock to really have a feel for them. But they climb ice a hell of a lot better than the old Fusions, that's for sure! We even had to pound a pin back in, they actually work for that. That's a key function on an ice tool for me, especially in the Rockies--pins are often the only solution. I think the Fusion will become my top choice for hard dry-tooling and multi-pitch mixed routes. It climbs ice well, drytools well, and you can beat on gear. I like it, I'll just switch picks around with my other tools depending on what's needed."

Men's XL in GREEN BEAN as shown. New with hang tags. $185 shipped in CONUS. The best winter ice climbing soft shell I know of. PM and Pay Pal. Bit less than half retail.

"Fortunately for them, they frequently work as guides or at gear shops where they can get pro deals helping with their difficulty." Funny that should come up....and you'd think that would make sense. My formal background is in Outdoor Recreation. A good many educational instituitions actually offer BA and Masters degrees in Outdoor Recreation. AMGA and the UIAGM offer guide's certification programs. But being paid well as a young guide (or old guide for that matter) is a wife's tale. Just aint so. Yes you get to work outside but the hours are long and most wouldn't be making even minimum wage if you went by the hours put in. A fully certified guide in the right location can make a livable wage. Two busiest guiding areas in the world by number of days out? Chamonix and Rainier for heaven's sake. You can make a fair guess how the rest of them are doing. Having been in that situation (guideing full time at a high level internationally)...and getting pro deals/discounts at the same time it is easy for me to say that the difference between what you get paid in the "normal" work force and what you get paid while guiding or working in the outdoor field still doesn't put the "pro" ahead of his civilian counterpart. Add to the fact the "pro" will be going through a lot more gear just because they are actually using it everyday and you can easily imagine just how far behind the curve you can get. Pro deals help those involved directly with the outdoor industry but no where near enough to keep many of the pros afloat and in the field working. You never see store employees short on gear. Pro deals abound! They get at least minimum wage and have to work a schedule generally. Gear lasts longer and is used less. I've known many, many guides over the years. Most work a few years off and on in the industry, all the while working outside in the public sector to make ends meet and then end up leaving guiding because they are simply tired of having to live a dirt bag life style in an industry that finds little monetary value in their skills and services. It is a realization most have to come to and then make a decision on what to do next as a career.

Hey Monty...you just need to get in touch with the right people at BD. Most generious company I know of in the industry, owned by...you guested it, climbers. PM on the way to you. Rebel sounds like a great tool. Love the technology that went into it and the after market support. Hard to beat! While I may be wrong not convinced it climbs as well as a Nomic on hard terrain. I'll put up with a lot of silly bs for that kind of performance. FWIW a Nomic is not the tool I would choose or suggest for grade 3 water ice...it will work but there are better tools for that angle. Nomic is not a beginners tool and not likely the only tool you'll want if you are going to own only one. Rebel, Viper, Quark, and Cobra are. Simond and Grivel also make comparable models that will work as all around technical climbing. None of these are tools I'd want on the vast majority of Rainier routes.

With all the positive responses a couple of fun things happened yesterday. First one is we have a centrally located drop off point in Seattle @ KOMO TV in Fisher Plaza. One of my favorite climbing partners, Tracy Vedder, will accept donations for "Pay it Forward" climbing gear. I'll pick it up, sort it, clean up and rehab stuff that needs it (sticky biners and such) and send it on to those that can use it. Just box what ever you have up and put Tracy's name on it and you can drop it at the concierge desk in the lobby @ Fisher Plaza. Tracy is a investigative reporter for KOMO TV. New on Santa's list? I heard from an assistant guide that was injuried while working this summer. He's doing OK but working on his rehab. One of the few things he can physically do right now is aid climb. He is looking for maybe 10-15 rivet hangers, both the cinch type and the hanger type, a variety of hooks (skyhook, talon, cam hook, etc), maybe some heads, and a functional hammer if anyone has something they can spare. If you have anything you want to donate and need to ship it you can mail/UPS or drop it off @ the address below. If you are close send me a PM and I'll come pick what ever up. Dane Burns 700 NW Gilman Blvd #116 Issaquah WA 98027

"Climbing is a pretty luxurious activity" You get no arguement from me on that one. Luxurious, waste of resources and time, extremely dangerious and more than extremely selfish to those that care about us. Here I am wanting to encourage others to partake...."a big hit off the crack pipe for FREE!?" I can't rationalise it. But I do remember the belly full of fire and the desire. Still have it on occasion even now. More likely I am stuck working when I do...morgage, dog and all. I wince when I go to buy a new pair of tools and can have huge buyer's remorse on a new pair winter boots, all the while making what most consider decent money. Have you seen what it costs to become a full UIAA guide these days? It has never been cheap. But criminy you could get a medical degree for that kind of coin...and the loans to go with it. Or buy a nice house! Been days past I'd love to be on the recieving end of something like this and thought I deserved it. I certainly don't deserve it now and really can't afford to give much away but I do on occasion have a thing or two someone might use. Be fun to hook those things up with someone who could and will use them. My first though on Pete's post was ..."200 ovals??!!...shit howdy lets go do a big aid wall!"" Apple don't fall far from the tree no matter how old the tree!

Anyone that expects a "fuck you" as a response generally will get one My thought was to support "kids" still getting into the sport. At 30 if you are really climbing generally you'll have all the basic gear. In my original post....I said, "Other wise all my buddies would want me to recommend them for free gear:) Most would anyway and lie about their age!" Gen Xers need to drop the pipe and get a real job some time soon. For most, climbing aint a real job. But hey, nice try.

Worthy goal (the warning) but helps to have a background and education in what really is a "foolish modification" and what the Petzl crew is already doing or has done and found acceptable. Done correctly a hammer head on a Nomic is one of those "acceptable" modifications. But not the only or the last.

There are enough guys involved already to be able to offer some really nice stuff, most, if not all, virtually new or new in box. You guys might be surprised to know who in the industry already wants to join in and help.

I understand the work ethic, working for and deserving what you get. Not the idea behind "paying it forward". "Yeah, well, I guess he had it comin'." "We all got it comin', kid." Thought it might be nice to actually give a little bit back....just 'cus we can.

Anyone got a size 6 ladies ice boot for a young lady leading .11s and making it waiting tables while saving for the guide's exams?

Half a dozen guys jumping in, off line, and willing to donate...which is very cool I think. For the young'uns (anyone under 30 to me ...if you need gear, post (in public here or a PM to me ) what you have been doing, what you really what to be doing in the future and your specific gear needs right now. We'll see if we can hook you up!

Everyone knows or has been the kid who goes without food or rent money to buy gear/gas for the next climb. He or she is likely young, living on their own or in a single parent home, excited and thrilled everytime just to get out. They may get chopped but they aren't likely to quit. Buddy of mind pointedly reminded me of the old days this morning. Thought crossed my mind over lunch. I have gotten a lot from climbing over the years but never any "free" gear. There are times it would have really helped save a few dollars for things like FOOD or travel expenses:) I and suspect many of you have stuff/gear that we all paid good money for and need or want to get rid of. How about we start a program where anyone over 30 can recommend someone under 25 to get a little "pay if forward". We all donate the gear and shipping to the project and the kid in need? Just match the donation to the need online? I used the age catagories to hopefully get better matches for what I am thinking. Other wise all my buddies would want me to recommend them for free gear:) Most would anyway and lie about their age! Thoughts? PM me if you know of a kid that you think could use some gear and what they need. If I don't have it maybe someone else will?

Suspect I am misunderstanding your comment. Source? Haven't checked past the web site. (nothing) Pretty sure the Nomic and Quark use the same aluminum alloy in their heads. Both are T rated. (head and shaft) BD Fusion of course is investment cast Stainless. Way harder than Petzl's aluminum...which is how they can incorporate the hammer into the head instead of adding one as Petzl has to the Quark.

Head material on which John?

Couple of things I did not know till this morning that are worth following up on. Spike is good for 1000# pull weight Fusion 2 and Nomic now have the same 32 pick to handle angle Old Fusion is 33.5 Tiny bit more off set on the Fusion 2 lower handle. Should be a bit more stable on hard mixed because of it. All the newest BD pick models (current production) have recontoured/shaved teeth, a slightly different upper bevel and nose. More overall strength and less effort for removal. Old version on top..new on the bottom. Check out the detail. New Pick changes???...John and Fargo might well have a good point. Seems a 800# gorilla with a impact hammer at the BD factory bolted the picks on the first Fusions out of the gate. I wasn't the only one having a hard time. Shouldn't take that kind of effort 2nd time around. You'll want to do the first one at home..trust me. And while not obvious to me...at first....no tools are required to change a pick past what you bring...a spare pick, your extra tool and some little imagination. Intentional in the BD design work I am told But as Kevino says..."how do they climb?" I'd bet they climb pretty dang good! Rob Cotter seemed to think they were decent. The rest of us will know soon enough

With so many options I thought a detailed review might help some that don't get to swing them on ice without buying first. "Everything instantly felt 1/2 grade easier. It felt like cheating. Now I'd posit that everything would feel a full grade easier compared to the "good old days". I would agree....generally full grade easier with the best tools than the original grades. Grade 6 ice use to be a rare and scary occurance for me. Climbed more of it in the last three years with new tools and screws than I ever have in the previous 30 years of ice climbing. I missed some really good climbing (read easier) by refusing to buy new tools thorough several generational changes. "Would you pick Fusion over Nomic? Looks like Nomic has a better total package." My answer? Petzl is very good. But BD stepped up and signifigantly improved many of the details imo. But you have to make a detailed comparison to have an honest and useful opinion. "BD takes the ice tool '09/10 winter season by TKO. The Fusion is extremely well thought out and finished in materials, design and detail." It isn't a clear knock out imo...rather TKO. If I was forced to own only one pair of tools..at the moment for my own needs it would be the newest FUSION. Better shaft by a long ways, you get both a hammer and spike (which I like for my own use) and a better grip platform on both lower and upper grip. All slight edges but they will make a difference in my own climbing...not much but some. Some times it only takes a "little difference to be a big help". We are really comparing the best from Ferrari, to the best from Porsche here. It is all really, really good gear! The decision will most likely be price point, what specific detailing you require and what else you have in the closet at the moment. "Disagree on this one. You need 2 different size allen keys to change the petzl pick (one for the bolts one for the head weight)... takes much longer IMO" Easy to argue either side in much of my review including the level of effort on changing picks. My comments were from having changed both picks on my Nomics (from mixed to cascade with weights already attached) while my partner was leading a pitch on Polar Circus last winter. My only experience with the Fusion (but lots with other BD tools) to this point is sitting at my desk changing out a pick last night. I can say BITCH! Tiny bit different than the other BD tools. Lots of small parts to loose (more for Petzl) on either company's tool and both require specific tools (BD wrench..forget the pick as a lever or allen wrench..one or two depending on prep for Petzl) and you'll likely need a hammer (your other tool) as well to get the BD pick off and on if you can't lever the wrench off a flat surface. Re: Quark and Nomic...Nomic is easier to change.

I have a Vireo as well. Nice bag and works well for a lwt bivy combo here in the Cascades. Mine is xl long so over the head when required. Done Robson and Temple and don't think I would use the Vario on either if I planned a bivy. Robson is colder and a longer effort than Temple. I sleep cold there simply because of the added effort the trip requires. E Ridge of Temple is generally done in a day. So if you planned on 2 days for Temple a Vario would/might be a good choice in stellar weather but I would want all my clothes (and the Vario is a tight bag..no hood) plus a good bivy bag. At that point might as well bring a real bag along..less clothes and be more comfortable.

First let me state these are simple dry land observations. I have yet to climb on the newest Fusion. But hopefully I can offer some useful comparisons and observations having a pair sitting here on the floor. A few threads about the new Fusion on Cascade.com already but none written with a tool in hand. Not easily impressed by any ice tool, holding on to these I have to say I am pretty excited at the out come. Before I start it is worth remembering every tool back to and before Chouinard's piolet was based on and simply an improvement of, tools that came before them as our newest climbing techniques required them to compliment our growing skills. Few have been real innovations. For those that have read many of my previous gear related posts I am a huge fan of the Petzl Nomic. To date there has been nothing to seriously compare to the Nomic. Those that have climbed with the Nomic realise that...as did everyone at Black Diamond obviously. (as you'll see) Which is a really good thing for us! Now there are options and choices to be made! Before I get to those details lets first look at the issues (good and bad) most striking with a Nomic. No hammer or adze is obvious to all. Missed? Some think so. Others don't. Lack of a spike at the end of the shaft. Missed? Again some think so, others don't. New techniques have been developed...like using the head for support on moderate snow or neve. Funky but it actually works. The lower grip support changes as you make the grip bigger for more glove...offering less support as it is opened. Not a good thing...few will argue that. Wrapping the shaft for stick and insulation? Not the best thought out idea, imo and a full 30 years behind times. Small detail but really! What the hell were they thinking? Shaft is one continuous size..one size and any position fits all? While it works...not really one size or position fits all. Up side? A easily removeable 2.3oz head weight. You can have a tool weighted specifically for ice (heavy} or mixed (light) or a combo of the two by mating pick (two options) and weight or no weight to your specific conditions and climb. I find that detail very useful. A shaft design and grip supports that really make the radical curve shaft amazing effecient in hard technical climbing and on moderate ground used in a dagger position. More than anyone (except Petzl) would have first expected I suspect. One of the best, if not the best, pick designs and manufacturing techniques imo. But that can be argued either way as well by smarter and better climbers than I. For those with info on the MacIntyre/Colton route...and Steck's choice of tools? Nomic, no pick weights and a mixed pick might come as a surprise...did me. And on the Mattrehorn Ok, side to side comparison..Fusion..Nomic Nomic 1 lb 6.6 oz w/o weight and mixed pick (no hammer/spike) 1 lb 8.9 oz with weight and the mixed pick pick thickness 1.5" in from tip .155" at the tip .140" Fusion 1 lb 8.0 oz with a hammer and spike pick thickness 1.5" in from tip .175" at the tip .146" The bright side of the Fusion? You get a mini hammer....and very good balance! Tool feels head heavy. But interesting enough a very similar balance as the Nomic with head weights attached.....very, very similar as the weight comparisons show. Shaft contour and pick angle are almost exact (maybe exact) duplicates of the Nomic. That is a very good thing imo. The pick design seems unchanged maybe the angle tweaked a bit but if so it is subtle. Jury is obviously out on that yet. But looks really good. Lower grip can be changed for size/space and not lessen the support. Upper grip is equal in front and rear support. Grips are a tiny bit different but nothing to make me think one is any better than the other. BD obviously spent a little more time and money adding a gripping surface which runs higher on the shaft. The shaft sizes change from small at the base of the higher grip to broad and filling on the major curve up higher for a dagger position. Which feels GREAT! And finally did I mention we have a spike on the end of the shaft? A removeable spike at that....alpine to the sport M climbs?! It will take full body weight on a umbilical and can easily be clipped with a full size biner. This one..the newest Fusion... will very easily do it all. And did I mention we now have a hammer Yes there is a Fusion under there... reversed position The spike The hammer and head shape comparison Easy to see which you can better wrap a mit around The upper shaft Rob Cotter 8/'09 "...I used a set to do a bunch of ice routes on Mont Blanc du Tacul in February 2008, very lively, sturdy....F2 will no doubt revolutionize high-standard mixed in the alpine environment offering high-end dry-tool capability in a tool very suited to ice and alpine applications, at last one tool that would excel in the Ice World Cup one weekend then give superb service on the Colton-MacIntyre only days later." Fight Club? BD takes the ice tool '09/10 winter season by TKO. The Fusion is extremely well thought out and finished in materials, design and detail. While BD is in the tecnical lead by a nose at the moment I have one area that still puzzles me with BD's design work. That would be their pick manufacturing technique and pick attachment. I think Petzl is still ahead of the game on both. The Petzl picks are still much easier to change while on route and still less likely to need that change. BTDT easy enough with Petzl while on route and can hardly accomplish the same chore in my living room with a correctly tightened BD head. Not a deal breaker but annoying with the issues in the recent past on BD pick reliability. The BD carbon fiber Cobra shaft and now the Fusion shaft are truely state of the art in materials and hi-tech design. Attachment and pick manufacturing are not up to that standard...as of yet...imo.

"..wonder if anyone that is modifying Nomics has actually talked to the engineers at Petzl, I would safely assume they haven't." dan_e you know what they say about assuming anything. You don't need to be a mechnical engineer to take a look at the heads of a Quark and a Nomic and see that the picks aren't supported by the handle. They are only supported by the steel bolts and the aluminum head. If you did happen to have a engineering degree you know that is what might be considered a "fatal flaw". Funny how the tools work just fine even with that "flaw". There is a reason Nomic picks work on a Quark. Nomic is really just a Quark head cut in half. Hammer works fine on a Nomic except for the fact that it changes the balance of the Nomic enough to be annoying some what on pure ice. Pounding on the back of a Nomic pick isn't going to hurt anything unless you miss That damage is likely only going to be cosmetic in the short term. But the pick's rear spline alone works well enough when required. Better yet a mini hammer machined in if that is the kind of climbing you are doing and the tool you require. A hammer head, even a mini version hammer head on a Nomic isn't the best pin hammer. Even the full size hammer on a Quark isn't what I'd take on a big wall to pound pins. Neither will be durable enough for long term use pounding pins. Stainless heads and hammers (mini or full size) like BD is using is a better idea imo for a base material. And obviously much more durable than an aluminum head, steel hammer. Durability is not the only goal we are looking for in an ice tool...balance is important as well. Balance is a combination of materials and design. The most obvious inprovements in ice tools in the last 20 years is better balance, less weight and more durability. A heavy, wooden handled piton hammer will always do a better job pounding pins. "A modern ice tool like the Nomic is vastly different than the tools the old schoolers used." Ya, I did notice they weren't hickory let alone bamboo.... But different?...Not much really between a Peck Terrodactyl and a Petzl Nomic. I have used damn near every technical ice tool in production over the last 35 years. I own Quarks, Nomics, the newest Cobra and a pair of 2010 Fusions and talk with industry insiders at Petzl and BD on occasion. Email and the phone are wonderful tools. And I am not the only one here to do so. The big differences these days is a head made of cast stainless (BD) or one of cast aluminum (Petzl). Everyone but BD is using an aluminum shaft. FWIW current production ice tools require fewer mods today than in the past....but not like you are risking much if you make reasonable mods with some care. There are Petzl sponsored climbers with factory modified tools that have gone way past just adding hammers to a Nomic. My take is we are pretty safe with the tools we are using chopped/broken or not. Hey, climbing can be dangerious YMMV of course. Flow Reversal '09 Slipstream '80 I find it hilarious when peeps start recommending ice tools they don't own or have never used. Classic example...a Nomic was never intended for the terrain a Cobra was to be used on. Better comparison is a Fusion/Nomic and a Quark/Cobra. Wrong tool on the wrong terrain can be serious if not dangerious no matter your skill level. Given the right skill set and right terrain some of the most modern tool's advantages far outweight their lack of more obvious features. Not every pilot can, wants or needs to fly an F16. Piper Cub is a good plane as well that will do things a F16 can't. Each new generation of tools builds on the last. How we (climbers) decide they need to be modified between production runs, at least in a small way, gives the manufactures a heads up om what other features we'd like to see in the future. Seems to be a decent relationship that has only gotten better over the last 25 years. Think not? Here is a list I made up last March/April '09 and posted 1st of May. "My "mission statement" for a better tool design and the current leader in design imo. lightest possible weight and excellence balance (Nomic) reliable picks (Petzel/Grivel, hot forged) easy umbilical attachment (Black Diamond) spike and top grip specifically for plunging (1/2 to BD) big clearence on the shaft (everyone) second hold mid shaft for matching (1/2 BD Cobra) range of 3 distinct picks for mixed, alpine, water ice (no one) removeable micro and macro adze and hammer (BD) shaft cover, is slick, insulates & sticky top to bottom (no one) Tool head, shaft, picks and grip that are all ergonomic (no one)" Take a look at that list and see how many details have now been answered by the newest BD Fusion? Obviously that wasn't just my list. more here: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/921963/gonew/1/BD_s_newest_Fusion_winter_09_1#UNREAD

"Dane, I'm curious to know what else you didn't like about the boot. I've only heard rave reviews but would like to hear your thoughts." My buddy, Dave, and I have been climbing together since high school. He and I both bought a pair, same vintage as the original poster. Mine were "OK" in the toes but just barely. Dave's were worse. Both of us noticed there was an issue. Dave thought his inners the wrong size for the shells it was so bad. We did not get the heated up. Big boot, hard to lace up (inner and outer) for a cold weather boot imo. Both pairs were "new" ebay boots. After a few months of screwing around with them and never getting a fit we could live with we dumped them back on ebay again. We both bought Spantiks. I have since gone to the Baruntse...which fits me even better than the Spantik. Dave likes his Spantiks. Climbing in really cold weather means the chance of serious foot damage. Finding the best fit in a cold weather boot might seem expensive, but it is nothing compared to the $ cost of a few days in the hospital treating a cold injury.

Truth is the major guys all build exceptional ice gear these days. Some stuff breaks...always has. Always going to be little advantages to be sourced out. Take a look at your buddy's B rated pick used for stuff that a T rated pick won't likely survive. None of us have anything to bitch about. Ice gear gets lighter, stronger more efficient and more durable every year. It isn't likely to get cheaper. For those that haven't noticed we've been in a WORLD economic depression for a while. We are damn lucky any of the major tool makers are still in business in any country.

The Material is sourced from the manufacture, Carpenter Technology Corporation in this case and delivered directly to our shop. All mill work and heat treat is done in house currently. Although the heat treat and cold quench is very complicated and will eventually be jobed out. Every piece is physically RC tested in house @ 2 places on the pick. Physical testing is months old and real life to failure. In other words I will know exactly what it takes to break one of these picks....in a vise in the shop with a pipe on the handle as a lever or torqued with two teeth in a crack climbing. If the product isn't a good deal more reliable than what is currently available I won't offer it. More detail on Aermet 100 we are using for pick manufacture. http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1466

Peuterey Integral video? Take the complete N ridge of Stuart, add the S face of Prusik and stack Liberty Ridge on top of that....all in one climb...3 days worth of actual climbing if you know what you are doing and can move in the alpine! Plus the approach and decent! Great video! http://www.alpineexposures.com/blogs/chamonix-conditions