Dane

BD loves us So no worries there. Dry tooling and really hard steels aren't all that compatible as you've obviously noticed. I think you'll find our version more akin to a "sticky aermet" in comparison to the original BD picks. Our tooth and pick design is also slightly different.

My other favorite among many..BG&E in simply amazing conditions. Climb should have a totally different name when it is like that...maybe just "Beyond.. Good"! http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=117&video_id=291

Two more good videos of awesome climbs for ideas on tool placements and use. http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=117&video_id=1110 Tool stacks @ 8:00 and on by the old school dude in the gaiters and his buddy while they are on the ribbon are great http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=117&video_id=272

He is using older Quarks with attachment holes on the shaft in different places....slighty lower than the newest tools so you can get the required bigger loops. A sewn loop (sewn while on the tool) and taped on the inside is used and works great just as you saw and described. I found for steep water ice it wasn't a very useful tool. But for steep (70/80 or less) alpine ice it would be awesome. Chamonix boys so they see a lot of that kind of terrain. A bolted high grip pretty much duplicates the ability to do it all except hang a pick in the loop to avoid a tool stack. In high dagger where these tools excel on moderte alpine terrain I suspect the loop was manly used to avoid dropping the tool while leashless. Umbilicals eliminate that need as well. I decided to stick with the umbilicals long term. The trigger he has added will do a real number on your index finger in cold weather...like tear a tendon off. Never a good idea to go full weight on the index finger which he is doing a lot. Remember this is a early video with Quarks (2003), the original tools (2000), and not using any of the Petzl factory bolted on grip supports and before umbilicals became common place. Stuff he is using are all Grivel parts modified to work on the Quark. But I'd like to be as cool as those guys obviously are! Awesome video isn't it? More here: http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP06/climbing-note-constant

Pardon me if I take Gene's comment seriously. Not sure he meant it that way. For technical climbing on ice at any level past WI3 the reverse curved blades and radically curved shafts are much more secure and easier to place and remove. Straight shafted tools have gone the way of the dinosaur for anything remotely technical on ice. The Viper/Cobra comparison is fair for price point but not for performance. Most of the points have already been addressed. But lets start by clarifying they are not identical...not even close tecnically. Head angle, shaft material, handle angle grip size and position are all intentionally different to offer a slightly less technical tool anda more natural swing. The first difference is a 1/2 degree change in head/pick angle. Minor to be sure but still signifigant when swinging. The less the angle the more natural the swing. Reactor is 28.5, Viper 30.5, Cobra/Quark 31, New Fusion/Nomic 32, with an addtional 3/4 in the New Fusion handle and the old Fusion at 33.5 . Handle materials do make a difference. The alumnum shafts flex. The Carbon fiber doesn't. Not a big deal on ice but it is on mixed. Grip size and shape change as well. There is a reason BD has taylored their handles more and more as their performace/pick angle design has increased. Not a single modern tool mentioned here that won't easily out perform and make ice climbing easier than any previous straight shafted tool. That said most of the pure ice climbs done in the world were first done with straight shafted tools. Which is to say...a club with a nail through it will get you up most ice if you are capable I have owned and used both currnt BD tools. $100 difference on tools? Been asked and answered many times before. Guys like Powderhound and Oscar who climb hard enough and know the difference in tools climb on the Viper generally, out of choice. But worth it? You get good value from the price of either tool. They are both "worth it". You have to decide just how much "worth" the differences are to you.

I suspect Bob was more worried about his partner and just took the dbl load in stride Either way

Pardon my editing But after almost dying while climbing 2 years ago I have had pause to think and rethink similar comments. If I bite it while climbing my considered wish is everyone from CC.com stop by my grave and give be a little kick and say..."dumb shit"! Buddies have already split up my gear. 'Cuz no way I can live down the embarrassment by then..mistake or just freak accident. It is obvious in our game, shit happens

Long standing misquote....generally accepted as Hemmingways. Although the point is the same. The chance of getting killed in the mtns is a part of climbing...ignore it at your own peril. "This is one in a long list of quotations mysteriously attributed to Ernest Hemingway. While the general public seem to agree that this is in fact a Hemingway quotation, scholars have some reservations and for good reason. The early Hemingway did not believe that bullfighting was a sport. For him it was a tragedy. See his October 20, 1923 article titled "Bullfighting A Tragedy" reprinted in By-Line: Ernest Hemingway Selected Articles and Dispatches of Four Decades edited by William White. Hemingway reiterates his beliefs regarding the tragedy of bullfighting in his 1932 book, Death in the Afternoon. In July of 2006, Gerald Roush, a visitor to Timeless Hemingway, provided a possible source for the "three sports" quotation. He cited a story titled "Blood Sport" by Ken Purdy, which originally appeared in the July 27, 1957 edition of the Saturday Evening Post. The story is reprinted in Ken Purdy's Book of Automobiles (1972). Gerald provided a scan of where the quotation appeared and it reads as follows: " 'There are three sports,' she remembered Helmut Ovden saying. 'Bullfighting, motor racing, mountain climbing. All the rest are recreations.' " Gerald noted that the character of Helmut Ovden is modelled after Ernest Hemingway. This could explain why the quote has been so widely attributed to Hemingway over the years. In May of 2007, Rocky Entriken wrote to Timeless Hemingway with another possible author of the "three sports" quotation: "As I am told, the quote belongs to Barnaby Conrad, a writer of the same era as Hemingway and a San Francisco raconteur of some note. Mostly he did magazine articles but his books include The Death of Manolete. My source is Dan Gerber, yet another writer of the era."

Sorry pretty naive' imo. Few other sports have the kind of risks involved that we take for granted on almost any outing at any level. There was a reason Hemmingway thought there were only three sports. The reason is the opportunity to die is very high in each..then and now. Knowing the fact and we choose to do it anyway. Ignoring that fact is naive and dangerious imo. Talking about it is a good thing...keeps us all honest.

Rafael..good question. Here is my personal take on the hammer mod. First the Nomic is extremely well balanced. One of the reasons it is such an exceptional tool on mixed and pure ice even though it is lighter than many technical tools available. Adding weight to the back of a Nomic is counter productive and changes the balance of the tool and to some extent removes a bit of my joy while using them. But the up side is I only use a hammer on mixed where I know I'll need a pin or two. On mixed I use a Astro pick and no pick weights. Swing balance on mixed isn't nearly as critical as it is on ice for me. I seldom swing...way more often just hook and go on mixed. So bottom line? I think the Nomic performs so well overall that I am willing to use them and modify them to cover more terrain requirements. Hammer is one of the compromises worth having when required. For $50 I think having a bolt on hammer is worth it on "my" Nomic. But I also have a Chouinard alpine hammer for a third tool that I use if I decide the climb is better suited to it than the compromise of adding a hammer on the Nomic itself. My comment: "The addition makes no discernable change in swing action." I believe that to be true for most that will use the hammer conversion, but I know/feel the difference and frankly would like a better solution. And while I have been looking I just don't know of one yet. The best I have been able to do so far is cut the Quark hammer down to a bare minimum so that is still usable for pounding pins on the Nomic conversion with the least amount of added weight. But to do it right you have to manage weight, how available the hammer is for angle and extension from the shaft and surface area. All conflicting requirements for what we really want...a Nomic that climbs well. One of the things I found very interesting with my new Fusions was the weight comparisons. Fusion (with hammer obviously) and Nomic with pick weights are exactly the same weight! Swing balance is different though...Fusion seems heavier. Weight in the back of the head is why I suspect. Nomics set up correctly never bounce on hard ice for me. More like the "one stick wonders". Lot of complaints that the Fusions bounce on moderate terrain. I suspect part of that is the difference in pick design and weight balance of the two tools, the rest being new techniques to learn. Hope that helps.

Good info and comments Don. Worth pointing out that Mt Blanc is a very complicated massif. You death totals are for the massif not Mt. Blanc specifically. While your Mt. Blanc summit numbers are correct the numbers of deaths include things like the toursits falling off the Midi for example or climbing major routes that are part of the Mt. Banc massif but have their own summits. Only added this post for clarities sake. 30 deaths in a month is common but a lot of climbing going on in the Massif as well. No other alpine area has as much difficult ground in such a compact area and such easy access.

"any reason to question its validity?" Should make David's Dad happy though

Any mtn THAT THOUSANDS DRIVE THEIR CARs UP or that 100s ride their bicycles up, to the summit, every summer aint the deadliest...sorry. But no qeustion they get some nasty weather and there are lots of frost bite and exposure cases. No one said it was easy....just not deadly at least going up anyway Here is just one of the many nasty switch backs! Winter? Take the guided snow coach up and down. "The Huntington Ravine offers challenging hikes, rock climbs, and ice climbs including: the Huntington Ravine Trail - considered one of the two most difficult hiking trails in the White Mountains; the NE Ridge of Pinnacle Buttress (5.7, 5-6 pitches); and a variety of winter ice climbing routes including the classic Pinnacle Gully (III NEI 3, 4-5 pitches), Odell's Gully (II/III NEI 2-3), South Gully (I NEI 1), and the Escape Hatch (I, popular descent route). The Lion Head, Huntington Ravine, and Boott Spur Trails all share the Pinkham Notch Visitor Center Trailhead with the Tuckerman Ravine Trail. See the Routes Overview Section below for a more complete routes list." Hardest thing there is a WI IV. Obvious it isn't the technical difficulties killing people. Sounds a lot like Hood, at least in winter, doesn't it?

Best piece of winter clothing I own for climbing....gamma MX hoody....but no way I'd ever pay retail for one. backcountry.com in SLC had been my go to store for the MX....but you have to be quick on sizes when the stuff goes on sale for 50% off. Google search is your best bet.

Not sure how many saw this on another thread but worth reposting here I think. 24 hrs out climbing in the Enchantments...12/2/09 Cause? Dehydration from a long day of hard climbing, 5 degree F or colder temps in tight fitting (technical fit) single boots. Results? 4 to 6 weeks in a wheel chair until dead tissue declares itself. 6 or more months before he is back in boots and even more time before he'll be back in tight rock shoes. Medical treatment? Emergency room, and two office calls so far. Seriously......makes a new pair of Spantiks with custom Intuition liners, new 'pons to fit and a new AT set up to go with them down right cheap in comparison.

So many things have become obvious in these threads. Please correct me if I am off base. One of the glaring issues I see is little or no infrastructure on Hood to support climbers. Silcox sounds like it gets used as much by climbers today as when it was abandoned and unused 40 years ago. No one keeping track of who is on the mountain or where they might be. No daily or current on site weather or avi info available. As much as I get annoyed at the NPS on Denali or Rainier , Parks Canada or even climbing in Chamonix all those things are easily available..current weather and avi conditions, a useful hut system for when the mountains flush you out and someone in most cases requires you to register...and they actually keep track of your route and OVER DUE date and time. 10,000 climbers a year on Hood and no support required? No wonder we see an abnormal amount of accidents there.

Here is a better picture of the Quark shaft without the add on grip support. The left side of the silicon grip on the bottom section in red is a paper thin section of rubber that is left after you trim the grip to fit the grip support. You can also see the hole that the screw makes when it goes through the thin section of rubber grip that was trimmed. Only the steel "spur" going out farther left actually blocks the screw. Easy to see now where the screw is and where the grip inserts snap into the hole in the spike. For you guys wanting to add the grip support to a Axtar I would suggest adding the factory part instead of a Grivel slider. You'll get a better balanced swing on the shaft and better support for your hand than a Slider will offer. Any one that is local and willing to make the drive to Issaquah I'd be happy to add the Quark grip (your part) to an Axtar for you while you wait and at no charge Or you could send me your tool and the part. Either way I'd like to see just how hard it really is to do for my own knowledge. Send me a PM if you are interested. Couldn't find a Axtar locally today between REI, Feathered Friends or Marmot or I'd more to offer on suggestions.

Pretty cool stuff to turn a phrase. Good on ya!

Bob I am just glad we are both still out swinging ! I did hear a rumor from last winter of a fall onto a hanging ice screw stance and then getting back on and firing the route?! You be careful out there now Just to be clear I recieved 3 inserts with each tool...one came already on the tool and two extra in the bag with a wrench for each tool. Have to assume 4 is max safety wise. As you mentioned have to think at pennies a apiece BD would have been included 3 or 4 with every tool. My guess is they made a mistake on the numbers ordered and didn't have them to ship with the first tools. But it is only a guess...worth a call to BD and asking for spares if your require them.

Lowa would work fine I suspect. Although I worry about the older plastics cracking in the cold as the Koflachs some times did. Worth doing a goggle search and see if that has happened with the Lowa you have. A well fit Intuition liner and over boots will go a long ways in keeping your feet intact on Denali

While I have not personally attached the factory Quark grip ledge to a Axtar I "think" the spike/ends are very similar on both tools. Might help to see this again. This is a Quark with the small bit of silicone rubber handle material cut away on the left side that is required to add the Quark hand grip. This is the Quark with the grip added. It is held in place by the bolt and an internal plastic cut out in the hand grip that "clicks" into the original large spike hole and is half of what keeps the grip from rotating. The bolt being the other 1/2. The hole left for umbilical attachment is about the same size as the obvious hex bolt in the grip. Hope that helps. Jordan...by most accounts it seems currently that the Petzl Cascade picks are still state of the art (in factory form thankfully) for pure ice.

A Quark and the Aztar both require material be cut from the bottom rubber section of the grip to install the factory Quark hand support. Supports come with those directions for the Quark. Obvious as to what is required on the Aztar after reading the directions. Problem is you can't replace the material once removed and you loose the full size biner hole to clip an umbilical too. Cord works fine though by adding a small loop to the hole that is available.

Funny you should ask. Worked on these today for a local hardman. Hardest part was bolting the dang sliders on for matching, as usual. Couple bucks in water proof plumbers tape, a few minutes drilling a 1/2" hole in the end of the shaft for a sling or mini biner umbilical attachment point was all it took. Maybe not the best technical tools for water ice but a great lwt alpine mixed rig if where they have been used to date is any indication. Aztar should be even easier with less work. Use a Grivel Slider on the upper and a Quark grip rest bolted on the bottom. Tape as you deem required.

Hey Bob, good review. Just wanted to let you know I got 3 pair, 6 total grip inserts with my tools. Any more (four will fit, five won't) and I suspect you'll be short on threads for a full strength clip in. I found the grip best used as small as you can make it and still get a glove into it. More like a jam and less strength required leashless if you run a small grip. I wear an XL glove and find the single spacer works best for me with my "canadian ice" gloves. A lwt OR glove, but can't remember the model right off. A second spacer is more comfortable but not as secure. You might want to try swinging from the upper grip for easy angle ice and see if that makes any difference if you haven't already. I find it fast and effective. Also worth checking out the newest BD T rated and Lazer picks. Big difference this year on strength and how they clean and place. Here is a look at the difference on the new bottom teeth. Newest Fusion T rated pick on top. Newest Laser is on the bottom.

No question it is a soap box. And just as obvious it is not the popular opinion. While I would like to advocate regulation on Hood specifically, even I don't want to go that far. from the PMR site linked above: Similar info posted before about not supporting mandatiory beacons but a cell phone and a GPS be used instead. Both thoughts I disagree with. Cell phones done't work over much of the Cascades and often as not don't work on Hood. I don't believe that people intentionally climb into winter storms thinking any type of technology is going to get them out of it. No one with any common sense would. You guys actually believe any different? You may agree with their final result (no regulation) but I find it hard to believe you would agree with the opinion beacons cause more rescues. Certainly more people having the ability to ask for help causes more rescues. One might make the same arguement with Sat. phone use on Denali or Everest. Both places where almost every professional climber will have a sat phone these days. From Whitaker's essay: