Dane

Well Fox you are free to take issue to anything I say. However I do personally think beacons (that would actually do the job, as the current ones obviously won't) on Hood would actually make a difference and save lives. My thought is based on my own experience and the more recent history of climbing fatalities on Mt. Hood. You have a right to your own opinions, those are mine. Would I like to seem them mandated? No. Would I like to see them in common use? Yes. Simple reason, Hood is different...just as you said, Even more attempt Rainier each year (13,000) with fewer fatalities on a technically harder and higher mountain. I'd have to give much of the credit to the NPS climbing rangers for less "stupid shit" happening on Rainier. Let's not relate "stupid shit" to any specific incident...present or past. "Stupid shit" in my mind relates only to a dinky 11,00ft pile of ash that a whole lot of people seem to die on needlessly on a regular basis. Now as to your other comment, what are the "We have enough regs as it is" you talking about that seem to strain you as a climber? NPS fees? Or is it the wilderness permit system that is bothering you? May be the no parking signs on private property in the Icicle? Or no overnight camping in your car in Yosemite's parking lots? (that one use to really piss me off) Guess i missed the regulations you seem to think so oppressive. On a different note...anyone else looked at the prices on Sat. phones rentals recently? This discussion made me look around a bit on Goggle. I was amazed at just how little they do cost to rent and use.

Come on Fox....the conversation needs to start some where. Assume I am an agent provocateur in this case. For what ever reasons some stupid shit happens on Hood. What does it take to get people's attention if we as climbers don't sit up and take notice that things could be different? I'd rather "us" decide beacons were a good thing (and become common place) than the state of Oregon or worse yet the NPS. Either way, we "do it" or "they" will. Thanks for the link. Currently the Spot 2 has a recall on it. And so-so reviews. It can be done better.

From my little research today it doesn't look like any of the current technology works the way I'd want it to. I'd want sat phone/gps technology with an "always on" capability when wanted or equired. Say something I could turn on while on the climb and off for the approach. Much as I would a avi tranciever. How that would work or if it is even possible I have no clue. Would I want it to be a governmental mandated piece of gear to go out with? No. Would I want one and use it if the technology were currenty available and at a decent price? You bet I would.

Shit Fox, you couldn't even finish Drury because it got dark....ya pussy Glad you got home safe, must have been scary up in those BIG, DARK mountains! You can buy or rent a beacon or a head lamp for that matter. You'll need to grow a sac. Glad we can relagate the discussion to spray now.

Let me pick on your comment I go out to climb....and come home again. All so I can do it all over again. If I thought a beacon (reliable and of reasonable size and weight) would up my chances to make that possible I'd carry one. Just like I carry a rope, helmet and crampons. I work hard at not needing Godspeed while climbing, thanks.

"Beacon" as in something that would give an accurate and readable GPS location to others when required to do so. Not the current Mt Hood variety or much else available commercially right now. We all know just how spotty cell phone coverage is in the mtns. Suggesting a GPS and a cell phone is one idea I KNOW won't work most of the time in the Cascades or Rockies. Who would need a beacon unless you started with a negative supposition Gene? What I find silly is not finding people lost on Mt Hood. I was a pro patroler when the first Pieps came out. Not the most accurate or useful tool at first for finding someone. Besides being REALLY expensive. A clue, a shovel, a probe and a buddy watching what you were doing was at the very least a equal back then. Now avi transcievers are standard gear for anyone with a clue and out in winter. Easy to work and accurate in actual use. Sure the poll is silly....which is my point....as a group disssing the idea of a 'useful" beacon isn't silly it is just stupid. Same reason sat phones and Spots get taken to the big mtns. Come on guys get over the government regulation thing and think about how a useful beacon with current technology might benefit us all. The reoccuring Hood tragedies are just a neon sign still flashing. You don't have to vote for big brother to slap you along side the head to realise we could all use something cheap and easy to use if it is reliable. The idea needs to start somewhere. Better us, than Oregon State mandating old technology junk that doesn't work as required.

Good thought but I think the technology is simply lacking to locate the missing. Given skilled and trained climbers and a SAR staff working with excellent communication and GPS location on the victims not much weather wise that would keep them from reaching a victim on Hood. Everyone involved said the weather/conditions were almost perfect during part of the air/ground search in this incident.

OK lets cut the shit. Let's see who really cowboy's up here. First question is if you happen to plop into a crevasse on Hood or take a tumble and can't walk out do you want a beacon or not? Second question is if your buddy and his partner both fall into a crevasse or take a major slide and can't get themselves out do you want them to have a beacon?

Ok, guess I am in the minority. But sure looks like a lot of folks die on Hood climbing. More than I would think possible even with the easy access. Never thought I be suggesting a beacon might well be a good idea there or any where. I am now but I have no idea how it should be implimented or by whom. And from just the little reearch I have done on beacons today they don't seem up to the task technically...yet. Not yet. But neither were crampons, climbing helmets, avalungs or avi transcievers originally. "Unique to Mount Hood, these devices can be rented for $5 at Portland-area outdoor shops[2] and the Mount Hood Inn at Government Camp, which is open 24 hours a day. The MLUs are simple radio beacons, and thus require search and rescuers to use traditional radio direction finding (RDF) equipment that provides a bearing, but not a precise location, to the beacon. Groups scaling the mountain are recommended to carry an MLU and all climbers must register before their climb and sign upon return. The MLU was designed after a school group with two adults and seven children perished on Mount Hood. (See Mount Hood climbing accidents.) The bodies of some of the group were found in a snow cave a day after the searchers had passed within fifteen feet of their shelter without noticing them." from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Locator_Unit No one piece of gear makes you safe in the mountains. But some can make it safer, like wearing crampons, a rope or a helmet under the right circumstances. But here in another tragedy where the dead climber at least moved from his original position after a fall and could have theoretically turned on a beacon. He then died of hypothermia.....exposure by the SOs report . Where are his companions? In a snow cave or a crevasse? Could they have also turned on a beacon? Obviously they could have all rented beacons @ $5 a pop. There is a reason bike helmet laws have been inacted on a county by county basis in WA. People die when you get your noggin bounced off the pavement. Most of the time it is a automobile driver's fault. Does it matter who's fault it is? Not IMO. Climber, weather, driver or just and unlucky accident that was no ones fault? No one has bothered to add up and post the number of bodies still buried on Hood. I suspect it is more than are still buried on Rainier. As a group (of climbers) I think that should bother us all.

You need dbl boots for Denali...singles with over boots won't do.

Re: reporters mace...you'd be surprised how reporters get hired. It actually does go beyound the teeth and hair...other wise we'd all (us beautiful people) be reporters right? I'd be willing to bet the reporter didn't pull the "body size chunks" out of his ass. Ask Guy Skeele (climber in video) about that quote. re: climbers From a lay persons perspective...climbers turn around and live...climbers continue and die. How else would you look? Why climb in winter for GOD's sake? Good question. Why would you?..people die of hypothermia and avalanches for chrimney sake. But a lot of us really like climbing in winter. Almost the only climbing I do these days. How stupid is that? I fell and decked from 30 feet on 5.6 rock while roped and damn near died. I've soloed trad 5.11s. How stupid would that headline look to a non climber if they could even remotely understand it...and they can't? I'd be just another stupid climber who "almost died" CLIMBING. There is no socially redeeming value to climbing in the greater non climbing community. We all look foolish.....might as well get use to it. If a beacon would find one person alive or just the body with less hassle I'm all for it.

Joe, Here is what I know of good reporters...they do some research if they have time...other than that they report...what others tell them. Down side of TV reporting is ...."it is now and it is in a hurry". A three minute spot on the Hood deaths is a lot of TV time. Be a hard story to tell accurately in a hour show. Most reporters, my Emmy and E. R Murrow winning investigative wife included, report what they are told when it comes to mtn accidents. They have no clue what the conditions are on the mountain (nor do we generally) past what they are TOLD or how experienced the climbers are besides what they are TOLD. Spot news...which is what this incident is is a "run and gun" affair. I spent a good deal of time on Hood...grew up living close to Hood and my first climbing was there. I can't see the problem with the report you gave a link to. I'm a couple hundred miles away but thought the conditions would be good that day. I see stupid mistakes by reporters everyday....part of our life style. But it generally isn't the fault of the reporter. They might look really stupid talking about climbing but they generally aren't stupid people. As climbers when we make stupid mistakes the end results are more serious. In the case of Hood I don't think beacons are a bad idea. Sadly all of us (I don't like the idea either) who don't think they are needed....are just as likely to need them as anyone else. How many bodies are buried on Hood?

Joe, No disagreement with you...beacons won't save a lot of lives. Skills and education would. We've see how far that goes. You can't mandate either or simple bad luck. The beacons would hopefully help on the body recovery. Letters to the stations? If you don't like the reporting call the reporter and let them know what you think. You might be surprised at the response. 20 years ago wearing a helmet while rock climbing signaled you out as a dork. Now even the Huber brothers wear them on El Cap. While I still refuse to wear one in Yosemite, I do wear one on ice and in the Alpine. Always have once they became available. Times change...common sense prevails at times. Too damn many people dying on Hood. Don't care what the reasons are. If a beacon would save a few or at least find the bodies quicker I am all for it. My heart goes out to the families and friends in the recent tragedy.

Hey Doug! I don't use the second grip on a Nomic or the Fusion to pull a bulge unless I am matching. Something I do alot these days in that position. The Fusion's lower handle is a couple of degrees more than the Nomic. That will make a difference. Call splitting the difference between a Fusion (also known as a "bad" ice tool and a awesome mixed tool) and the Nomic...but it isn't really splitting the difference. I have yet to pull on the top of a pillar with the Fusion. The Nomic excelled at that point on a climb for me. Hopefully I'll get out this week and scare myself I might find the same thing... Worth checking out the newest BD Lazer picks if you haven't already. Big differnece on strength and how they clean and place. Here is a look at the difference on the new bottom teeth. New Laser is on the bottom in photo. to be continued

CB you have no idea of what you are talking about.

Grivel slider is a no brainer on the Quark. Easy to fit.

You poor lads still loving the Cobras Just takes some time to get use to the Fusion/Nomic swing..when you do you'll find a most useful tool that takes very little effort to use..plugging it in or unplugging Saw Bob's comments useing the Fusion on lower angle ice. My experience with the Fusion and Nomic is either can be awesome and amazingly fast on moderate ice. But I never swing from the lower handle on moderate ice. Obviously YMMV as some have reported.

What G said and no stretch...makes a good ski jacket though because of the wind block.

That is the ...shit! Thanks

Don't give him any ideas......at least for 4 or 5 more weeks!

Hate to be a buzz kill. If you are asking which boot to use on Denali then you also need to take over boots. Climbing Denali without over boots depends on a couple of things, the boot (as you know) your own experience in cold weather and the weather on your trip. Kurt gave good advice based on experience.

Excellent comment. I'm not a reporter but I am married to one.... Same one who has picked me up at the hospital after decking out with Sobo and same one who buried a fiancee' after he fell in the Snake after his waders filled up. He made it out and died of ...you guested it hypothermia. If it were my friends still lost on Hood I'd be the first to advocate beacons. Thankfully it isn't. But seems like Hood gets an inordinate amount of "lost" climbers. I think it is a damn GOOD idea to require beacons on Hood. I once spent a really long night walking out to the road after skiing off Hood in a white out. Anyone want to tally of the number of bodies that we would have found if everyone, in every party, HAD been using a beacon? Not to sound too insensitive, saving lives is a good thing....but body recovery is as well. What is the big deal?

The Reactor is one of the better cartridge stoves around. IMO the Reactor is not a winter stove dispite MSR's claims. White gas and a pump still rule. Much to like about the Reactor and I do like it...but. Fact is all cartridge stoves are poor performers in cold weather...unless you set the cartridge upside down or can heat the cartridge. MSR's Iso/Pro, better than anything else, works to about 20 degrees. Most winter climbing is done well below those temps. I use almost a full can of fuel for two of us at every dinner meal/rehydration. More if we have to melt snow for everything. Anyone else using this much gas? 8oz of fuel in a 12oz can. 4 oz of wasted weight just in the can. MSR says 80 min. per can. Seems about right from my own use. Gas and pump stove would half that time cooking. From REI's comparison numbers: Reactor will boil 10 L of water on 100g (4.5 oz) of fuel...so I should get 20+ L from one cartridge. You don't get anywhere near that in cold temps or working from snow. Dragonfly will do 6.7L. Cold temps or hot. It is consistant. As we all know the paper story isn't the entire story. I've been using cartridge stoves for lots of years. (as well as white gas/pump stoves) Only way I've found to make a cartridge stove work well in cold weather is to play Russian roulette. You add a heat exchanger....and doing so is DANGERIOUS! I had hoped the Reactor might have solved the cold weather problem...but it has not. Daniel Harro's heat exchanger shown below. Photos posted with his permission. I've use'd something similar made from cooper wire pounded flat. Looks like Daniel's idea would be more effective. Trick is you never know just how hot the cartridge is with this method. Anything over 120 is not a good idea. Over heated cartridges can make a real mess of things. A heat exchanger and a insulated cover for cartridge and pot are what I would use in really cold weather. YMMV don't try this at home:) I like how small and easily carried the Reator is. Yes there are smaller stoves. But the big advantage for me of the Reactor is the size of the pot. It is all about hydration in winter. Not like anyone here has ever for got their lighter right? I like having a igniter on the stove...left unused till needed.

Good thing?...not my feet! Bad thing? 4 to 6 weeks, more likely 6 totally off his feet in a wheel chair. By six weeks the dead tissue will have hopefully detached itself or at least shown itself enough to be cut away. Then 6 months or more before you get back into climbing boots let alone rock shoes. Serious sheeeet.

24 hrs out climbing in the Enchantments...12/2/09