Dane

Elite commandos? The US Army and our Spec Op community went looking for a cold weatherr clothing system some time ago. Primaloft was one of the third gen. results of that research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Cold_Weather_Clothing_System http://www.millikenmilitary.com/products/Pages/extreme-cold-weather.aspx Companies like Patagonia and Wild Things get huge $ contracts from the US military because of it. Those contracts are one of the major reasons Wild Things recently sold for several million $. The contract over runs get sold to the public, cheap. http://www.wildthingsgear.com/legacy/?cat=15 "do your research and go with something that has been proven" Now don't beat up the old fat guy again for asking but how long have you been climbing? Gear, especially clothing, can change on a seasonal basis. Yearly is almost a given. Stuff that was awesome 5 years ago may be off the market, changed for the better or a total POS today. Better to just do your own research and TRUST no one Many good climbers wear what they are paid to wear or are given to "test" not because it is proven or the best for their needs. That term "proven" has taken on a whole new meaning when compared to what is available. I have begun to think of "proven" as the name brand that has the biggest advertizing budget and sold the most amount of product at a discount. I always accepted the DAS as the gold standard in belay jackets. My first stop looking for a belay jacket was to buy one, thinking it would be an easy decision, at Patagonia DT Seattle. Found the new Primaloft DAS jackets and balked. I knew nothing about Primaloft at the time and walked out of the store. Since then I was able to email Steve House. His comment was something like this .."best DAS yet, packs smaller and is 20% warmer..". Which I believe now from my own research (been climbing in a Primaloft jacket for almost 2 years and didn't know it) to back up what Steve said. But something that should scare you. Military contracts (except for the Spec OP community) are awarded by the lowest bid. Last time I checked it actually was law passed by Congress. Take a look at the newest DAS in the pictures above, even though it is obviously the wrong size, and tell me that looks like a $300 Patagonia jacket? I can tell you that when you take a DAS and put it side by side with other belay jackets in a price range between $190 and $500 it is nothing spectacular. And certainly no longer my gold standard. Patagonia was not my only surprise. The other two jackets I had seriously thought of buying were in like company. And obviously I do my research and in all three cases thought the jackets "proven" and good investments. I don't want to spoil the surprises. I'll give all the details in the up coming review.

Halifax, my apologies. I got a little hot after the "disingenuous" comment. At that point I stopped reading and started reacting. Halifax sez: My first post was simply an inept attempt to clarify that stainless wasn't any better or worse than chromoly as a base steel. It shouldn't be a point of discussion let alone argument between us or Grivel and BD. Obviously some rivalary and market share wars going on there to get the spew of propaganda and media misinformation. The alloys and heat treats you choose are what is important within the definitions of stainless and chromoly. I posted the 2 generations of detailed Cyborg weights to make that point. If you want the discussion to go farther than that it is easy to fine any manner of alloys, stainless or chromoly, that can be made into an incredible (however you want to defind that) crampon. Just pick a super alloy, stainless or non. The problem with the "super alloys" is the price of the steel, the difficulty working/machining it and getting it to market at a price point the consumer base can bear. But with the right choice in alloy there really can be some magic happening. No one is making a "super alloy" crampon with the possible exception, if you believe their hype, of Camp's Nanotech @ $255. retail. Using the term "super alloy" for Camp's 'pon as we would in my industry would be faulty labeling. It is simply another stainless. Might be a good choice in alloys but no magic to be had there. When you make weight comparisons between models make sure you understand comparing cookie cutter frames (very strong for their weight) to solid frame crampons. Each manufacturing style has distinct end user advantages and disadvantages. more here: http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=bdaa2ce0e0d7426aac6b8a7daad50a8e Good reading here: http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=438 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superalloy Source of much of the steel I use http://www.cartech.com/products.aspx For the price point and the advantages of stainless, plus the advantages of durability in the SPECIFIC stainless ALLOY BD chose I think they have an exceptional product at a great price point. Good luck with any company (manufacturing from steel) telling you the actual alloy and heat treat they are using so we could all look it up and make a side by side comparison from the steel charts. Water has it right...."correct me if I am wrong but if you are going through crampons fast due to wearing the teeth short...you're either doing something wrong or are one badass mofo who has earned the right to bitch about the difference between metals"

My guess is that is simply the current Nomic pictured with some extra tape wrapped on the grip. But I could be wrong Three new tools to be unveiled on Thursday at the OR show. Nomic, Quark and Ergo is the word so far....but no one is fessing up on details or pictures. No question what Ueli is on in Jon's picture above is a new tool.

Ryan, honestly the only reason I climb in winter is you don't have to pull hard to play hard Guys let me get all 8 jacket reviews done and the piece published here. Then pummel me with the questions .

NO, not backwards just totally FUBAR. You may have read it but you have zero comprehension of what the wiki steel info says. So let me state this again. Stainless steel and chromoly steel is equal in weight. Stainless steel and chromoly steel can be had in alloys that offer similar strength, toughness and durability. THE ONLY ADVANTAGE stainless steel has over chromoly in crampons is in corrosion resistance. Zip, denada, nothing more...end of discussion! Once you actually understand that fact it is hard to get it backasswards

Long shot on short notice but thought I'd ask. One way or r/t and split gas in my Nissan crew cab. Likely $175 one way. Send me a PM if you are interested. Drive down on the 20th return on the 23rd.

Matt all the jackets shown are XLs. The DAS fits just as it looks. No trick photos or a differenent stance. I felt like a little kid trying to wear my Dad's clothes in it. I'd have to go down at least one size and maybe two for it to fit me as a climbing/belay jacket. But haven't tried that yet. I could easily put some of the other jackets shown and all my cold weather climbing layers under it. Lots of room in the torso, arms, neck and shoulders. Clearly the wrong size for me. And the biggest surprise in the jackets out of the box (but not the only one for size). Primaloft 1 insulation is suppose to be 2x as warm as down per thickness. The average loft of the new DAS I have here is around 2" front to back. Similar thickness as the Mtn Hardware Compressor in Primaloft 1. I am trying to get the info from Mtn Hardware as to what weight of Primaloft they use compared to the 170g in the body of the DAS.

Some/most of your comments-assumptions are faulty. Where do people come up with this stuff? You want to argue with the director of hardware at BD about his own products have at it. I was just relying info I found and had BD verify. "stainless has a higher strength to weight ratio or at least stiffness to weight"....this one in particular. Feel free to document that statement. It's bs. Were you thinking of Titanium? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium Stainless and chromoly can do the exact same jobs (except for corrosion resistance) with similar heat treats and choice in alloys at the SAME MATERIAL WEIGHT. When you understand even a tiny bit of metalurgy it takes little to go from chromoly to stainless in an alloy. And when it comes to crampons it is way easier to use chromoly and get acceptable results. Same reason only one company heavily invested in stainless technology and others make web posts on the material. http://www.grivel.com/acciaio/stainless_steel_vs_chromolly_steel.pdf I am telling you what the exact weight changes are and why for the last two generations of the BD Cyborg. I choose them as the comparison because it was easy as there were less design changes on the Cyborg compared to the Sabertooth. I can tell you exactly what the thickness (volume?) of the metal BD produced the Cyborg's from, which BD confirmed, as .1000". The 2.8oz weight loss on the new Cyborg is as I said, 3 to 5mm shorter stainless spikes, now powder coating (paint) and the new heel levers. No one changed stock thickness at BD when they went from chromoly to stainless, that was my point. And I don't trust my eyes for posts like this. I use a digital micrometer and called BD to confirm my observations and see what I missed. You might want to read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

I have seen so many misquotes and misinformation on stainless steel used in crampons...including the newest BD crampon review in R&I I thought it time to get the real info down in print. Stainless is not lighter than chromoly. If you use the right steel and heat treat, the only advantage of stainless is corrosion resistance, and lack of final coatings required for field use. In fact is stainless steel is more expensive as a raw material. Substantially so. Back to crampons. Bill Belcourt says in his BD crampon video..."the new stainless crampons are lighter by DESIGN" That means that the design of the BD crampons has changed. Lighter heel levers, no paint, slightly shorter stainless spikes or the loss of a set of screws on the bots. It all adds up to a better "design" but it has nothing to do with stainless being lighter than chromoly or being able to use less of, or a thinner material (they didn't) because of the change to stainless. As an easy example the old (2008) Cyborgs weigh 42.2 oz. The new stainless (2009) Cyborg weights 39.4 oz. That is a 2.8 oz difference. .6 oz of that weight loss is in the new rear levers. All the stainless pionts are shorter (3 to 5mm shorter) which is the majority of the 2oz left per pair on the Cyborg's weight loss but paint is some of that as well. I really like the new stainless BD 'pons. Some good improvements in design and a big improvement by going stainless I hope. But for the end user the majority of that is simply cosmetic. But lets give the credit where it is do...it wasn't stainless that made a lighter crampon, it was the design team at BD. Just more flash and more at stake in the stainless committment.

This might help. All XL jackets with a T shirt under them. On a good day I am 6'1" and 205#. Mtn H Compressor $190 retail Primaloft Eco new Patagonia DAS $300 retail Primaloft 1 Eddie Bauer XV $269 retail 850+ down Feathered Friends Front Point $429 retail a 850+ down

Designed to adapt to different styles and uses. Cookie cutter frames are built stout and heavy to allow that kind of use and long term durability. Replaceable front points for years of hard use. 1065g Designed for a specific use. Built on a level of durability to accomadate that use. Made as a disposable crampon once the front points have been worn down. 860g Dru isn't the only one to like that set up, longer front point under the toe on a Grivel Rambo. 1275g

Fair critism on first impression. But in reality not very well founded. No offense taken but let me tell you why. First thing you missed between your puffy and the XV. The XV is a quilted down jacket. They aren't the most common design and generally very warm and expensive. From using several different brands of quilted down jackets I can tell you I don't use one often and I would never, ever, put one in a machine...you'll tear the baffles. That should be common sense although the manufacture suggests it in the case of the XV. I'd bet your down puffys are sewn through. A good sewn through one a machine wash won't hurt on gentle. And most any synthetic on the market you can throw in the machine as required. A turn in the dryer even helps the synthetics reloft. You made a few comments about layering and the DAS and my statement about a DAS being too warm for the Cascades. "Your" (generic term your) use was not what I was discussing. Neither was Allen's use shoveling the driveway. Both legit uses. Just not legit uses to judge the effectivness of a XV imo. My discussion of the XV was directly targeted at really cold alpine climbing and what the XV jacket was actually designed for. If I do a review it will be within that context. I (and many others)have worn a sleeping bag while bouldering in Camp 4 and JT but I don't want to climb in one. In the context of "belay" jacket it is assumed that people will use a standard alpine layering system under the belay jacket and not a t shirt. The reason I don't wear this heavy of a jacket very much? Well..they are too much insulation for almost anything. That would include sport climbing or rock climbing or ice climbing or shoveling your drive way or walking the dog or as a belay jacket on road side crags. As a group dismisal I could add a few more activities in there but suspect it was my reference to "sport climbing" that got your attention. I won't write a rock slipper review and bitch they don't keep my feet dry and warm. You'd laugh at me My take on Andrew's review or your comment, "lots of us find coats this warm useful on a regular basis". "while you may be in a place where you can spend hundreds of bucks on a jacket to sleep in a few times in the far north" My "place" is a good belay jacket on serious winter climbs is a piece of survival gear. I pay what it takes to play the game. My take on wearing a XV while doing any of the uses I mentioned is the users have no idea what the jacket was actually made for or don't care. In the case of the XV it was made for really cold technical climbing. I wear a mtn hardware or a patagonia puffy around here in winter when the temps allow it. The XV and its class of coats are over kill for me but admittedly maybe not for you. Have I used it yet? NO, I have not used it. I can tell you the number days I have used a similar coat while climbing. As I said before they are few and far between. And I would not consider myself overly warm blooded. I generally get cold before my partners. Bought the XV for a winter project which has yet to happen. I may or may not write a review before I use it as intended. It is worth noting "raves" are not reviews. A good written review should review the item in the context of its design. Agreed? As far as "raving"? I bought mine on sale for a limited time at EB. My impression was EB sold shit these days. I was wrong about that and wanted to change that impression publically. For my own climbing I generally only buy exceptional quality. When I find that quality and at a remarkable price, ya I don't mind "raving" about it. In the case of the XV my impression was the sale was 2 days. Turns out it was more and others could get an exceptional deal. That to me is worth sharing and raving about. Here is a picture I took for review I am working on. It might give you an idea of the difference between belay jackets like the MtnH Compressor (or DAS) and bivy jackets like the XV. Both jackets are folded over to show what they can provide for insulation. Hard to see in the photo size..the XV tops out @ 8.5", the Compressor @ 2". Of the eight bivy/belay style jackets I have for review, all but one in the $300+ range, 4 have two way zippers and 4 don't.

Anything more than 2 garbage bags BD First light 2 man tent is 43oz. Somewhere between the two should work just fine.

No worries Curt.....should have seen what I went through to have the design explained to me. Just so happy Gene inabled me to share My only dissappointment with Dartwins was wanting the pairs I gave away, back!

Congrats to the new mom and dad!

Naw, I might have, but I keep giving them away.

Anyone catch Andrew Bisharat's review of the XV in the newest issue of R&I? I never fail to be unimpressed by some of the stupid shit people write who should obviously know better. And EB gave him the jacket to review!!! "complaints: no big pouch pockets...I use those to store climbing shoes...and a thermos. "Doesn't have a dual zipper...that helps us climbers when we don hardness, tie knots..." Having Andrew write a review on sport climbing in the XV is like having a 14 year old with a learner's permit write a driver's review of a Formula One car.

Send them to me and I'll try my hardest....just not sure they can ever be fixed or put back together now

I'd sure like too! Rab may happen now that they have a US warehose.

Good observation. I would assume that the newest helmet designs are more concerned with head impacts while falling than they are about impact protection from falling objects. I too have realised the lack of protection on the back of the head and exposed neck area. FWIW between my Grivel Salamander hard shell and my Petzl Meteor II foamed shell the coverage is virually the same. And little coverage for the neck if you bend your head forward and down. Better to keep your head up I guess and see it coming

My apologies to Julian and no disrespect to Will but a 45m WI4 no matter how many laps were done now or 10 years ago has nothing to do with the changes in ice climbing standards. It does how ever point to the changes in Will's physical abilities over that 10 year period. And he has added much to the sport. This stunt wasn't a big addition. Compare the comments with Guy Lacelle's 5hr solo of all three Trophy wall WI6 routes almost 10 years ago now. Or the enchainments many have been involved in that were changes made possible by tools and new mind sets. Frank Jordan's solo enchainment in 1994 comes to mind. That one still amazes and inspires me to what might be possible. Read more here: http://www.gravsports.com/Aerobic%20Pages/frankjourdan.htm

Good question! First might help to know that their really are some smart people in the design department at Petzl. They don't leave anything on the table. Which is why most everyone has been copying them. Just don't get me started on the freak'in side-locks! Yes, there is a right and a left And no they were never made to be reversable. While possible, if you did choose to use them that way I would worry about breaking them as the design of the forfoot was never intended to be stressed that way. The idea with the Dart and Dartwin from the get go was the lightest weight and most technical crampon possible. Light weight by design generally means a certain lack of durability. I have found that true in both Petzl Dart designs but a worthwhile trade off for me. The longer outside point is made that way because we all climb with splayed feet. If you are looking for the best stability with a vertical point crampon (not the best on stability in all around mtn conditions) and not a compromised monopoint what Petzl did makes perfect sense. They already had the Dart so way would they compromise on a second design? When it comes to climbing hard mixed in Dartwins, the shorter inside front point has some distinct advantages over two long front points that you would want on neve' or even water ice. It is a very technical crampon designed specifically for hard, modern mixed on big mtn routes. What many didn't realise originally (myself included) was the Dartwin was supposed to be as technically specific as the Nomic obviously is. Awesome 'pons if used in the right place imo. Front points might look a little weird but they will climb great. Seriously, I'd be happy to buy them from you Gene if they are in decent shape and the price is right. Some good climbers using them on hard routes. Dartwins on n. Butt of Hunter from Colin Haley's web site (Colin's photo) Bjørn-Eivind's left foot in Dartwins while leading leading "The Vision" should clarifiy what I couldn't. Dartwin again with Ueli Steck the Grand Jorasses..Jon Griffith photo The Petzl police and your buddies will only laugh at you for having your 'pons on backwards I use to have that happen a lot in kindergarden

You mean to say pissing down the route is now unethical? Ya, they need to come to NA. Some nice lines they are doing though.

I ended up with jackets for 2 in depth reviews. Basically bivy jackets and lighter belay jackets.

My XLs won't make 1.5 Nalgene XV on the left in a 6x12 with room to spare. Mtn Hardware Compressor Hoody on the right, tight, in a # 3 FF stuff sack, 8x5?. Both jackets are XLs. If you wear a "Small", things would go into much, much smaller sacks I'm finding the best sythetic belay jackets (DAS, WT BJ and Dually) and the best down belay jackets will go into a smaller sacks than they are shipped with and all my XLs will go into the 12x6 with different levels of effort and generally with room to spare.