Dane

L-town is London for this conversaion...but drove over the pass yesterday (Snoqualmie) and stuff was frozen. Bet leavenworth is rocking right now. We should be there! Part of my explain' to the wife is...a beacon I would never let my wife watch that movie!!! You nuts? Merry Christmas to all!

Might be the spirit of the wilderness. Never been the spirit of Alpinism. The greatest climbs are the human stories of those that have gone before us. Imagine no records of the Eiger ascents or on the Grand Jorasses?

So who is the best ski boot fitter in Portland?

You're killing me....came in the window last time...figure going out it this time would certainly jump start the process Snow in L-town?

This is good! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmjJBu0xiwc

Mtn. Tools in California has the Petzl pick weights and the Grivel sliders. The reason I mentioned spare picks instead of weights is a set of water ice specific picks would offer more options than head weights. Azterex is a very good mixed climbing tool but not so good on water ice. But the only reason for the poor performance is the pick design imo. The T and B rating on tools is the shaft/head attachment strength or just shaft strength. Strength ratings refer to the shaft or shaft/head attachment. B rated 50cm shaft must withstand a load of 2.5 kN. T rated 50 cm shaft of a Technical axe must withstand a load of 3.5 kN. The Aztarex lacks a rivet pin through the shaft that all three of the Petzl T rated tools have. There is also a plastic spacer between the aluminum shaft and the steel head. Aztarex is the only steel head in their technical tools. Everything else is aluminum.

Back ground in a thread here: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/928447/1 I've been adding hammers to Nomics for a couple of seasons now. We have finally come up with a design I think is better than the factory would have done it. Easy to improve someone else's designs if you don't have to invent the design, so if you can't do it better why bother? Compared to my first welded version and the newest BD Fusion The pictures are of a hammer and pick made to mate up in a Nomic head using the Petzl factory hammer and pick. We (coldthistle.com) will be offering this service on your Petzl parts for $65, on new Petzl parts for $150 and as of today our own hammer and pick. We'll offer two versions of pick to fit the Nomic. Either can be had with or without a hammer slot and the slotted picks can be used with a spacer without the hammer. The *Scapel* pick is a radical water ice pick. The "Rock* a mixed pick that will aslo climb water ice just fine. The picks are being manufactured from a an esoteric Japanese die steel that will be more durable than anything produced todate. Both are drilled for the Petzl pick weights. Cost of CT hammer and pick set is for $175. Wait till you see what we will be offering for BD tools! This is just the tip ofthe iceberg. What we are doing is going to change that entire BD pick/handle dynamic! Now for the really cool part. We'll take your useable Quark hammer and any *new* Nomic pick in trade for a set of modified Petzl hammer and new Astro pick. We may also have a limited supply of Cascade picks. Cost for the trade is $65. Send me your old pick and hammer and the connversion is $55 which includes priority USPS shipping. To modify your extra picks is $25 each. 10 day turn around. Nomic pick weights are 62grams. The cut down CT hammer is 34grams So the swing weight change is easy to adjust to even if you are using just one hammer. We've also come up with some pretty tricky ways to up the strength over what Petzl and others have done when making this mod. Some on the board know that this has ben a 3 plus year project to get parts in hand. It is fun to make this stuff and fun to offer it to other climbers. It is even more fun as a climber to to be able to make it even better than I had hoped! It truly is a Merry Christmas around my place!

Joe, done the same thing to a bunch of Quark picks. Easy to do with a hand drill and a cobalt bit...cobalt 'cuz the picks are harder'n shit. Really helps if you have a Nomic pick to overlay the hole pattern. If you don't have a buddy's Nomic pick you can borrow let me know and I'll trace out the pattern for you and mail it. Buttttt..... I'd wait till you do the other stuff done first. You might find you don't need/want the pick weights...they are heavy and expensive. Aztarex is pleanty heavy in the head already. Heavier than a Nomic. I little file work on the picks will make them climb a lot better on pure ice. If it were me I'd buy new picks instead of weights and cut them up to something like this on the Nomic. The Aztarex is already very close to the same weight without the pick weight. And you'd have a extra set of picks. I'd bet the two Cobalt bits and the head weights would cost you close to what the pair of new picks would. I'm am so jazzed about the production ice stuff we are doing at Coldthistle.com. Hope to have some new pictures on online tonight!

Last year.... Damn Dru, you finally got up Sir Donald and got to look down the north face.......good on ya.

As of a minute ago Vancouver had 4 Cascade picks on the computer but couldn't find any in person. Everything was a Astro that the salesperson could actually find and put an hand on...and only 3 of them at that. FYI the Astro and Cascade are virtually the same pick just longer more pronounced teeth and more of them on the Astro. They are both a nominal .130" on the pick end. Few minutes with a file and a grinder (careful now) and the Astro would climb ice as well or better than a Cascade. Something like this.... Not my preference but something easily done in the car on the drive up with just a hand file. Much of this kind of stuff I have or will have on hand at coldthistle.com and available immediatly for locals. In this case the Cascade Nomic picks are getting hard to find and order. I offered my personal set to Rapheal as long as he promoses to stay out of any boats .

For me..alpine or hard rock it was always about "the line". It is kinda like painting a picture. The unclimbed stuff is a blank canvas with no reference to human beings until it is climbed. Once climbed you've added your own brush strokes, your own picture to the landscape. But I have to imagine "the line" being there first, then imagine myself being able to climb it, let alone being the first to climb it (which generally takes a huge ego imo) and then actually pulling it off. There are lots of FAs to do but few of them are "lines" that really inspire me to put in the effort. Once found those kinds of FAs might inspire or nag me, depending on the day, for years. What really does amaze me is that we still have lines like that to climb. Stuff I looked at 30 years ago and would still like to do, are still unclimbed. Never thought it would be possible. I also view second ascents in a similar manner. You are tracing another climber's art and reaping some rewards from his intitial thought process and action. Just knowing one party went before you eases so many doubts. I view 1st ascents, mine or someone else's, unfinished and incomplete until repeated at least once...silly I know but just the way I look at it. The 2nd ascent is what really connects the climb/the line to the community. The first ascent only a fleeting vision of what is possible, the unframed picture. The 2nd ascent frames the art and shows it as a completed piece. One of the things I really look forward to even now is a 2nd ascent of a line I did. I always want to ask, "Was it hard?" "Was it fun?" "Is it worth doing again?" The answers to those questions are hopefully a mirror of your own experience and in some small way validation to your original effort. However you look at it I find the 2nd important as well and part of the FA experience for me. Enough that I have done several 2nds of my own lines. Not the best feedback for sure but better than nothing. Another thought that occurs to me. Be it a 6000' alpine FA or a 40' rock route each has its own passion. I've spend as much time, energy and thought doing either size route. And both required at least the same level of committment if not the shorter one requiring more. Funny that, thinking back on it.

Get a boat (and cross at the lake, fool) or get a beacon

My point is simple. A modern beacon with current technology can work as intended. The right beacon can make identification and mobilization faster when in need of a rescue. At least in part my debate is with PMR and anyone thinking along those same lines. Hopefully none of us will be laying on a glacier somewhere, injured and dying slowly of hypothermia remembering this conversation and wonder why we made the decisions we did. I'm done.

Sorry PLB as in "personal location beacon".... OK guys but what you miss is if groups of folks were getting killed because they decided ropes weren't a required part of their kit on a glacier we might well take exception to that action as climbers. If a PLB actually would save lives (technology limits accepted for the moment) doesn't it seem foolish for us (climbers) not to be more accepting of them in the community? I read more here of "hell no I don't want/need a beacon" than I do "a workable beacon would make sense". PMR flamed the fire of this one as much as the deaths and resulting media attention has imo. Just saying and asking the question?

Obviously you've never come upon a rotted, maggot invested body or one partically sticking out of the ice...or the rather large blood spot that use to be a human being an avalanche can leave. Or awaken sucking dirt into your lungs. That kinda stuff makes some people look at *life* differently, not just climbing. I do find it laughable that weight comes into the conversation. While we all might obsess over weight in or outside our pack at one time or another you have to be a real gumby to make that claim an issue in this discussion. If an extra 4oz is going to keep you from pulling a move you suck bad anyway. To who? You or me? I'm certainly not the only one here, but I had been involved in very few incidents over my entire climbing career and know climbers who have died. But I find it easy to tally them and even easier to look back at their specific accidents and realise many would have likely lived if they had recieved more timely attention. I don't find myself hardened by those experiences but more willing to be objective and hopefully find ways to avoid such an incident myself. Same kind of problem solving that gets you up climbs imo. I have suggested that a modern beacon with current technology be developed and that it become as accepted and common in our community as a helmet or rope is now. I didn't see a down side in that equation. Times change. Some one hands me a 4oz beacon and says I have to use it on Denali, Hood, Rainier or the beach I'd most likely just say thanks (if it actually worked as intended) today or 30 years back. Where's the beef...I just don't get it. Now if you want me to actaully PAY for that beacon we *might* have a problem if it isn't my choice. Better than the damn shit cans and bags we now are required to use because their are just too many climbers. The whole dying thing and discussion isn't all that fun. But the conversation is entertaining. Reminds me of another discussion I only read about but seems appropriate to mention now as we discuss PLBs. My generation in no special order has laughed at harnesses, pitons, nuts, Friends, helmets, leashes, umbilicals, bent shafts and 'pon spurs. The previous generation laughed at ropes and crampons just to name two. Most of the big ice faces in the Alps were done very early on sans rope. Not because the climbers were stupid or brave but because they knew they didn't have the technology (no nylon ropes or ice pitons/screws) to use a rope and catch a partner in a top rope fall let alone on a lead fall. So better to climb without a rope and no one fall...or if you did, you didn't kill your partner by that mistake hopefully. You wore hob nailed boots and used a 100cm axe to chop steps...lots of steps. Sure people ski those lines now and still die when they fall down them. But back before the turn of the last century some really fit and able men climbed hard and risked just we do now. They also adopted nylon ropes, crampons and later on trams and then even curved tools. Trams or PLBs? Now their is a trade off I don't see a PLB changing the way I climb now or that it would have changed the way I climbed in the past. But I am an old goat, it might well change yours. I'm not the first to repeat this, "today's death route is tomorrow's trade route." One of the reasons that continues to be true is we as climbers adopt new technology quickly be it a rope, crampon, Friend, Nomic or a PBL. Unless you are soloing naked, technology makes it all possible.

I'm interested.

Since you asked. Where else do we loose bodies on a fairly regular basis in such a small geographical area? Not deaths mind you, but body recovery failures. For me that is the tip of the iceberg. I ask myself what else are we missing here? I did not say PMR should be eliminated from the discussion. I do wish they would offer more on the subject than their written statement again mandatory beacons. Sorry if anyone is offended that I disagreed with PMR but I just can't figure out how they came to the conclusions they came to in their official statement. My experience tells me it simply does not make sense. Being against mandated beacons I don't have a problem with. Telling me a beacon or just better communication in the mountains isn't a good thing I find sadly, ignorant. Also I don't think the general public needs to be involved. But we as climbers do need to be involved and vocal. Involved enough to tell the real story why beacons won't work right now. And smart enough to lobby for beacons with the technology that will work. As a group we need to make using "good" beacons just as acceptable as using a helmet or a rope. I love Hood no matter how we describe it. I also have climbed it in some pretty bad weather. But I fail to understand the dynamics of at least two of the recent SAR efforts. I wasn't there so I won't second guess it but I sure don't understand the results. Easiest thing to point a finger at is the inability of SAR to work within the weather windows available. It is an obviously time sensative issue. Better communication would help that issue. My personal experience on Hood tells me that a RELIABLE beacon/communication device specifically made for mtn use could have made a difference in both incidents on Hood I am thinking of, either in saving lives or for finding bodies if the time frames on response could be shortened by better communication. But that is only my GUESS by the information afforded me sitting at my desk. To be specific, Luke didn't die quickly. The coroner reported Luke died of hypothermia. Just as a good friend of mine did after a fall on Dragontail. And I had a fair idea of just how much he was capable of surviving first hand. Hypothermia is not a quick death. Luke was reported by the Sheriff's Office to have moved yards by his tracks before he died. My friend was able to move..not far mind you..but he was able to move. Coroner speculated he died at least 48 hrs before being found. In both cases a timely rescue might well have saved either man and with some luck, those that were with them. My first exposure to a death while climbing was in The Valley. A climber fell and broke his fibia (not compound but painful enough) decending the east ledges on El Cap. Willing his partner to start a "rescue" since he couldn't walk or hobble down the Ledges his partner took off. Hours later on his partner's return the climber was dead. He died of shock from a fairly minor injury, a small broken bone in his leg. A timely response would have more than likely saved his life. Imagine his partner's reaction to the death after stopping to buy beer and dinner to take back up so they could celebrate their ascent of the Nose. Many times the victims are all those things. But then if you become a victim something was obviously missing from that equation, at that moment, on that day. Common sense and experience (in the mountains) tells me to hedge my bet if I want to continue to play this game. The "right" beacon sounds like a good idea to me. I won't begrudge you your choice.

Well done, thank you Hans. My first response to the recent accident, as a long time climber with some SAR experience, was something needed to be done on Hood. A little research into just the available technolgy clearly shows mandated beacons are not the answer. The reason is the technology to have them actually work reliably, in a climbing environment, even a small percentage of the time, is not there. Yet... The last rescue I was involved in the 1st responders had to hike out and then drive to the entrance of Icicle canyon just to get cell service. Location of the accident? Base of Lower Castle rock. Imagine the extended response time to just that small and simple effort? Victim needed to be carried out. Crawling was an option and might well have been possible but would have also made the injuries much worse. Imagine again just how well cell phones work in the rest of the Cascades as a reliable method of communication in an emergency. PMRs public response to mandated beacons is so weak imo as to not be believable. If that is all they are capable of I can easily lay some of this issue at their feet. They should be leading the discussion imo not stumbling over their own feet. I've carried a Sat phone once in dozens of remote trips out of the CON. US. Cell phones are a novelty not part of my rescue plan. What I have learned from the discussion is I would carry a reliable locator/communication device on most any trip if one were easily available and economically feasible.

My mistake for not again qualifing my statement, "What you miss is everyone fears death". my previous comment: The Hood issues are in debate right? We are here to share an opinion and exchange ideas/views. My opinions might well differ from the majority voiced but are nothing more than my opinions. I respect others and your right to have an opinion. I may or may not respect your opinion depending of course if I find any value to that opinion based on my own life experience. You are obviously free to do the same.

That is laughable. When you gain the maturity to be called "old timer" and have faced the reality of your own death dozens of times you might realise that dying climbing is no different that being run over by a bus, being shot in the head or a long lingering death by cancer. You think it is only climbers that have to over come their own fears (of death) to accomplish their goals? I'd venture that most of a climbers fears are unrealistic incomparison to a few other activities...as LE/military/firefighter come to mind off hand. Few rational people get to choose how they'll die. Damn few climbers ever died "doing what they love". Dirt dives, sleeping on ice blankets and banging your head against a rock not withstanding. Generally we (climbers) die from really stupid mistakes. And no one, including the DEAD climber is happy about it. What you miss is everyone fears death. How/why you fear death has nothing to do with climbing. We all know death is coming, only difference for each of us is how much pain we'll go through before its done.

Fook me running, please let me explain! Dying...we all do it at some point or being cold or alone? Everyone will experience all three at some time in their life. Way more people die of exposure (inside and outside) every winter than climbers ever have. Pretty basic human feelings (fear of death, being cold or being alone)) shared by most everyone to one degree or another.

Most who have been involved in climbing for any length of time have lost a partner, loved one or known someone in the community that has. It is never easy. It is a part of climbing. My heart goes out to anyone in that circumstance. It is not easy. The debate on Hood over climber registration, SAR and how the mountain might be better managed is a worthy topic we should all be involved in when it is appropriate for you. The Oregonian's recent "stump" cartoon under discussion flames the fire of the debate just as it was intended and should. It is no better or worse than the editorial cartoons that run almost daily in one paper or another world wide denouncing the US lead wars in Iraq or Afganistan and using the dead in each instance to make the point. It is a normal human response. When people die with no easily understood reasoning those left alive want to identify the problem and keep it from happening again. That response is as old as human history, "go no further...monsters lay beyond". Viewed by the non-climbing public..climbers walk from safety, willingly into the land of monsters. They don't understand why we would or the dangers that obviously live there. The non-climbing public sees and does understand the fear of dying, cold and alone. It shouldn't take much for us as a community to understand why the incidents on Hood draw such attention from the rest of the population.

My hill before it was your hill Exactly...it all depends on your point of view. My thought is we as climbers really ought to be happy that their is a debate and that we get to be a part of it. By the look of it the climbing community (SAR included) can defeat that atitude....if you get involved past the Internet forums.

I sure as hell fail to see the humor of people dying and bodies being lost on a pile of shit like Hood. The (editiorial) cartoon I find biting with sarcasm and gallows humor. Appropriate for the context and climbing in general imo. Like any letter to the editor is is simply another man's opinion. In this case a very well illustrated opinion or as Joe implied so succintly, you wouldn't have your panties in a bunch. I know it is hard for some of you....media bashing and all...you'd think this was a forum for the NRA! Ya freak'in wankers.....grab the clue bus as it goes by will ya?

And I thought it hilarious