Dr_Flash_Amazing

Iain's post brings to mind another question. Y'all republiconz seem to be all for unchecked consumption of resources; forests, oil, etc. and seem unconcerned that we'll ever run out of the shit, which may or may not be the case. Why, then, when one fraction of our recreational resources is threatened to be removed from use, you shit blocks of Frank Endo brand gymnastic chalk about it? Something tells DFA that if Exxon found oil there or if Bechtel was going to develop it for mining, you wouldn't give a shit about Cave Rock, as it's just a piece of shit sport crag and there's plenty of climbing around there. Or would you be crapping yourself that this was just the first step in big corporations taking away our climbing areas? The day it happens (and sooner or later, it will), DFA will laugh his ass off.

Well-reasonedly stated, Senor Puget. DFA is a big fan of compromise and diplomacy most of the time, but this time he felt that culture trumped compromise. Whether the cultural argument is truly bullshit as put forth by the Washoe is hard to say (the Doctor did look, by the way, and couldn't find much info on their religious practices and culture in general). Also, DFA visited your profile and "You rated this user a 5." We'll see if it ups your star average.

Muffy, that's a tough call. While Cave Rock is but a tiny chunk of available climbing surfaces in the Tahoe area, Smith Rock is the only climbing resource of its size and scope within 8 hours' drive. Given that Smith sees gazillions of visitors, DFA would probably endorse the a compromise option rather than opting to give up climbing there altogether.

That's just it, Rob, it seems like the Washoe are going through the proper channels to secure what they want, i.e. this chunk of andesite. They're not just sitting outside the Forest Circus office protesting, they're taking appropriate action for the end that they seek. It's not just crying for a handout. Shit, they're not even getting anything material out of it. They're not being given the land, they're not putting in slot machines and charging a fee to get it. Just asking folks to stay off the rox.

Of course the Doctor believes what he spews! But arguing's kinda fun, too. Say, haven't you been known to do a little trolling on occasion, you know, just for the sake of arguing? Yeah, DFA remembers something along those lines.

Trask, why are you backing the climbing community's "poor me" stance? Poor us, we are losing our crag. The "poor me" argument only seems to bug you when it's coming from a direction you don't like. Plus, DFA's shamelessly bleeding heart is naturally drawn to the underdog, the little guy, the dark horse, and yes, the black sheep (once you go black, you'll never go back!).

Hey, why do you clowns even give a shit about preserving a sport climbing crag with routes that start at 5.11 and run up to 5.14, with the bulk of the routes in the 5.12 range? Do you even have anything to lose here?

Damn, Trask, you big doofus; this has nothing to do with whether Native Americans can make something of themselves here in the great land o' the free. It's about whether we're being selfish pricks as climbers and disrespecting something that they hold as culturally significant. And, hell, it sounds like the Washoe are doing their land-of-the-free best and going through the right channels to accomplish their goal. They're not just sitting at home whining about it.

OK. The Washoe don't do anything with Cave Rock, and they don't hold Cave Rock as a religious or culturally significant site. If that's actually true, then maybe the whole thing is bullshit. But if it is true, what good would it do them to tie up a bunch of time and resources just to stop people from climbing there? It doesn't make much sense that a tribe of 1,500 would just arbitrarily go to the trouble of keeping people off some rock if it didn't mean something to them.

It's a humble Legacy, you bourguois swine-pig, you're the one with the leather seats Out-in-the-back-parking-lot-of-the-mall yuppiemobile. Get it straight, honky.

No. But maybe it should give you something to think about as far as being run off your land and left with nothing. DFA's fractional amount of Cherokee blood makes him think that maybe, here and there, it might be a nice show of humility on the part of our arrogant nation to make a few concessions to Native Americans. You wouldn't hammer out an aid line on a mosque, you wouldn't chalk up and boulder inside a Buddhist temple, you wouldn't put up routes in a church; why not acknowledge that the same thing has basically been done at Cave Rock, and do the respectful thing and leave it alone?

Greg, we hardly gave the losers "all sorts of free shit." The natives have been stuck with a bunch of barely livable dirt that most people wouldn't want to put a parking lot on. Shit, some of the land that was given them has even been flooded by dams, forcing them onto even shittier land. It's not like they all have mansions in Del Mar and free use of Air Force 1. It's not guilt, it's fucking outrage. As far as our having taken the land "fair and square" (ha ha -- not), do you feel that standard should be applied everywhere, or just to the fragmented remnants of subjugated cultures? If DFA brings 50 armed people to your house, kills your family and fences you off in the corner of your back yard, is that fair because superior might made it so? If the government takes your property to build a freeway through it, is it tough shit for you? If they come through with tanks and drive you out, leaving you no recourse; oh, well, they took it, so you're out of luck?

You and RobBob are right. Indians are poor and lazy, we took over their land because they were too weak and stupid to defend it adequately, and what's left of their culture and traditions should die ASAP so we can get on with our all-important pursuits of acquisition and contrived recreation. Onward the white man and glorious homogenized monoculture!

Tsing Tao!

You no like Pacer? You got something against America, man? Some kind of communist guy like in China?

Man, you're bitchy lately; what's up with that? DFA isn't going to flame you, despite your decision to grill the Doctor. This isn't some case of "a few people lived in the area," this is nations of people who have systematically been lied to, stolen from, murdered, and crammed on to some of the most worthless tracts of dirt our fair nation has to offer. Now, they ask for a little respect of an area they consider holy, and it's way too much to ask? Bugger that, hoss. One crag (a sport crag, no less -- since when are you so concerned about sport climbing?) at Lake Tahoe, which is surrounded by climbing and close to world-class climbing and bouldering in several directions, and it's too much. They're infringing on our rights as climbers. Rock climbing as we know it has been around for what, 40 or 50 years? And this somehow trumps hundreds of years of native tradition? Shit, you yourself are against adding a bolt to an established climb as it would ruin the route's character and natural difficulty. Yet you can't see the reason in closing a crag to maintain something of cultural importance; a culture that's damn near gone? Ahh, the Monday morning debate. Fabulous.

Jeez, Trask, what a devoted lover you are! Going down on the stinky end like that ...

Ehhh? You no like? Have tent, very pretty for go camping! Nice backdoor party tail part, make thrusting at pretty campsite girl. You no like camping girl? What, you swishy-swishy guy or something? AZTEK: Real zooming man-car for mountain guy, go buy now.

Don't be a knob, get a fawking Subaru, dude. Vroom.

Ya learn something new every day, good buddy; every day.

Haw haw haw! Trask must've missed that day in school. Dude, everybody knows the moon landings were faked! It even says so on the back of the dollar bill, right on one of the arrows the eagle is holding. Boy, you probably feel really, really dumb right about now. Whoooo!

And where's the damn DFA shrine, fercryin'outloud?!

You gotta be kidding.

What? The land was stolen from them in the first place, and we can't respect their wish that we stay the hell off of it? An admittedly so-so crag? A compromise is always nice, of course, but it seems like bringing the beef with Native Americans is not the best use of the Access Fund's clout.

But ... but ... Pepsi Blue is extreme, and, and, and alternative, and, and "the kids" just loved it in the focus group! Bleah! Regular Coca Cola on ice, with a lemon wedge or two is the only way to go.