Off_White

Interestingly, many of the most talented climbers who've posted on this site use their real names, either a first name or a full name. They don't usually bother with the bolt blabber either. Most of the people doing first ascents of rock routes in this region don't post on this board at all, or have only made very rare appearances.

You're being obtuse Pat. It's my assertion that many people act more like dicks when their words are not linked to their everyday life. You'll find corroboration in the comments section of every online version of a daily paper, and I think you'll find ample evidence here as well. I do indeed think real names might make a difference in the tenor and quality of a climbing ethics discussion, but of course I might be wrong. I'm unaware of that being tried anywhere before. I'd accept the notion that perhaps Tvash and G-Spotter using their real names to post might indeed have no effect in what they write online, but I bet Tvash says things online that he'd never say to a stranger's face. Lots of people here do that, and I know I've done it too, so I don't mean to imply that I'm some paragon of virtue.

Raindawg, you've outed yourself by promoting a book you've written. In what way is Mattp inappropriately outing you by citing information that you yourself have released on this website? Yes, when the purpose is spray, it doesn't matter what you call yourself. My point is that if you want to talk about something like climbing ethics in a forum that isn't spray, anonymity is a hindrance to civil behavior and actual discussion. By all means, remain anonymous and blabber all you want on the subject, but don't complain to me when your important topic gets flushed to Spray.

That's damned good news, thanks for the update Dane.

You're uniformed, I'm the one who gets the complaints from people when they've had their real names attached to their avatars against their will. People do actively want to prevent having what they say here attached to themselves in the real world. You, like G-spotter, and any number of durable persistent sprayers, are only thinly removed from their flesh and blood identities, and the connection can be found by anyone who really wants to spend the research time. Still, you, like Raindawg, are anonymous to anyone who drops into the site without a lot of history. Logical fallacy or not, I believe this is the single biggest reason bolting threads ALWAYS degrade into anonymous abusive shit slinging character slurring debacles and get shipped to Spray. There has never been such a thread that has made it to page three without someone saying some kind of crap that they'd never say if their mommy was in the room to ask them, "Why would they say that to another person? Didn't I raise you better?" If you're afraid someone is going to track you down and throw a brick through your window because of something you said on the internet, you'd best reexamine the way you treat other people.

Right, so Bill O'Reilly's opinion on climate change is as valid as any climatologist with an advanced degree. Like it or not, climbing has always had many of the aspects of a meritocracy. Do you think that Alan Watts, who's argued climbing ethics with a variety of very talented climbers face to face, was wrong to decline to debate online with some anonymous internet troll? Just because the internet gives everyone a stump doesn't mean that all opinions are equal. If you don't care enough about something to stand behind it, who gives a rat's ass what you think?

Well Bill, that would mean everyone would have to be accountable for their opinions and the things that they say, just like in real life. Frankly, I think its impossible to have an adult conversation about anything of substance (like climbing ethics, politics, or religion) that is the least bit controversial without that accountability. It might not even be possible with everyone just being who they really are, but 8 years of cc.com have proven that it's certainly impossible without it. And I don't mean just stating your name once in a post in some thread, but registering under your real name, if nothing for the purpose of talking about things that really matter to you. By all means, keep your spray avatar if that's what floats your boat. I also understand that there are all sorts of things in many people's lives that they would just as soon keep separate from their work life: co-workers, clients, or supervisors. But really, using a false identity to talk about matters of import discounts your opinion by about 85%. For the record, Off White does serve as a real name: it's what most of my friends and family call me, I get mail under that name, cash checks with that name, and have had most of the few first ascents I've made recorded under that name as well. My drivers license does say Douglas White, and some people do prefer that name for a variety of reasons, but Off White is not as anonymous as many might assume.

Paranoia the destroyer [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9ObLGRq33o

Oh please, feel free to start any number of Spray threads about sketchy ads on Craigslist, I agree that its an amusing topic, but it was correctly pointed out by the spiritual leader of Spray that this thread is about helping out Redpoint catch the thief/get their gear back, and I don't think Eric reads up on all the threads he's posted everywhere about it, so its more effective to send your discoveries to him directly.

I reckon Marc has plenty of responses to consider, lets let this thread run out and go argue about Oregon or whatever elsewhere please. After a certain number of pages it all turns to spray anyway, and I'd rather not ship this thread out of the forum.

Hugh, I have a dog that disproves that statement.

Outstanding, thanks for the TR

Good point, perhaps the thing to do is send info on suspicious stuff to the Redpoint guy via email rather than have a validity gossipfest here. This is the email address for Redpoint: contact@redpointclimbing.com

Oh, there's always room for movement. We're at the highest health care cost in the world for the 37th best care and only mediocre longevity. We could always pay a little more for a little less and die a little sooner. Yuck it up buddy, its likely your children won't have as long a lifespan as you do.

Yup, can't argue with that.

Naw Dick, the Bug's okay. He holds forth on what matters to him, but he usually doesn't loudly proclaim that whatever he doesn't do is invalid. Photobombing, the subject of this thread, is not so cool. I really liked the photo Choada Boy posted in that thread, and the implication of comparing that vast open pit to the horrors of bolting is pretty valid, but pictures that large are inserted with the intent of making a thread unreadable, and that's not so cool. Bill's big sun (also adopted by others) is not quite so massive, but its still intended to mess with page formatting and load times...

But hey, whatever you do, take some pictures and tell us the story! Oh, yeah, and have fun too.

I'm with Joseph on this one, our hobby is not the most important thing in the world. Bird closures, especially ones based on observation (like in the Tieton area) and what the birds actually do, are a fact of life.

Yup, if he wants that close to full retail, he should just return his "gift" to REI.

Yup, its pretty much whatever turns your crank. If you want the experience of bolting on the lead, just hand drill it. On a dodgy stance, its often more stable than using a drill anyway as once you've got a hole going you get some stability out of it, and it's easier to drill higher. On the otherhand, if you come off (and hooks are often not all that secure) and ground out and wind up in a wheelchair for the rest of your life for the sake of being "pure" on a 50' route you've scrubbed and tr'd, you'll have a lot of self justification to help keep you busy. Make no mistake, its all about the experience you want to have and how you'll feel about it afterwards. After the route is established, it won't matter how you put the bolts in with regards to how future parties will experience the route.

Ding ding ding! Bill hit the nail on the head!

Well Gyro, sounds like you've got control of your dog, so it wouldn't be much of an issue, and you pick your trails. Lots of dog owners are neither that on top of it or that considerate. My dogs are willful geeks with short attention spans, they'll respond to verbal commands but they think everyone is their friend and all dogs want to wrestle, so they go on the leash. They're also apt to get all excited and chase off after something in the woods, decidedly uncool wilderness behavior. Its probably exacerbated by the fact I live on 32 acres and the beasts have the run of the property, but at least they know the property lines. I rather like the idea of Bug as the spiritual leader of Spray. The Trashtart plays a different role.

Pink, I haven't a clue what you're on about. Oh, I saw John's post about his day of birth deadlift personal record, whatever. What's this about eharmony, and whats it got to do with this site? If you want me to ban you, its gonna cost ya. Up front too, Squid offered me a six pack to ban him, and I've never seen a drop.

There's some great country for poking around out that way. I don't know of much route development, aside from the Goose Lake & Quincy Wildlife stuff that's in LaBelle's Rock Climbs of Central Washington. I'd imagine Rick might know of what else is happening around there, though who knows if he'd admit it. The merely vertical basalt stuff doesn't really seem like Marty Bland's thing, but he or maybe Burdo would be other brains to pick.

Sorry my friend, but it's gone gone gone, and all in a pointless effort it seems. My apologies if you really miss those particular pearls, but I assure you: you have written much better.