Off_White

I take it we've never met.

It's because no one wants to give you what you want, silly rabbit. Sack up and develop a little self control.

Value of talk and action each would 0.5, and that would solve for both equations. Being more obtuse than Gary is something of an honor, isn't it? Who says a BA has no value?

Well, so is the KTK for that matter, what of it?

No, I guess I don't believe that. Do you mean I learned all those chords for nothing?

Not to quibble with you Dru, but shouldn't that be Talk+Action = 1? Oh, and lets all take a chill pill and not be getting all dink this and motherfucker that, with a punch in the mouth thrown in, mmmkay?

Marko, the last time the question came up, I was left with the impression that the Preiss route and IB didn't have much overlap. Do you have access to any photos with both lines drawn on them?

I think 1) and 2) can be reasonable approaches, though Dru's russian drinking game makes a fucking mess that threaten's everyone's access. I think 3) is just the flip side of adding bolts if the bolter just plain didn't put enough bolts on a pitch, like one every 30 feet.

That's pretty sweet There are some real howlers in that article, but all in all it's not a half bad job of examining the issues.

The answer to Hows Da Wedder is the root of all of this...

And on the otherhand, I appreciate Joseph's restraint, which shows more concern for climbing as a whole. Bolt wars are ugly civil war affairs that tend to damage all climbers relationships with outside authority and threaten everyone's access. I think his position is more effectively made by cogently arguing his point rather than going rogue with a chisel.

Indeed, and this thread is a testament to the status of the original hoax, a classic. You understand why no one could come out and tell you, don't you?

Yeah, seal the hole with some of that epoxy putty. Can you really remove an expansion bolt like a Rawl 5 piece with a tuning fork? I'd be very surprised, and you'd be fighting it all the way. I can see it working on a compression bolt like a split shank button head. Pope, the way I see it, if it's alright to alter a route because you personally don't like the way it was put up, then there are no rules. You think it's only valid if it's a ground up route? Someone else thinks it's only valid if the route is safe enough for the masses. And yes, that opinion is out there, and those folks would be as justified in making the Bachar-Yerian a bolt ladder as you would in removing Condorphamine Addiction, because the criteria is the same: how does the individual feel about a route. The argument about whether rap bolted routes are valid was over a long time ago, so your assertion that it defines the standard is not widely accepted. "Offensive" is a personal and relative standard.

time isn't after fuss either.

We seem to have a good population of rubber boas at my quarry, they're splendid little snakes. One of them is so dependably found in a flake at the base of a route that the route name was an easy call.

Well look who's the girl with her paddle in the shitpot! Well, what the hell, here's my opinion for all that's worth: If it's your route, you're welcome to remove the bolts. If it's an inappropriate retro-bolt (ie someone added bolts to an existing climb without fa permission/wide consensus) it may be appropriate too, though I'd urge as much conversation beforehand as possible, because a repeating cycle of chop & replace is really messy and damaging. Personally, I don't feel that style disagreements justify bolt removal. If someone rap bolted and you don't like that, or if they placed more bolts than you would, that doesn't give you the right to remove the bolts. The principle of FA sanctity is a double edged sword. Removal methods are varied, I know some have been talked about here. Minimizing scarring of the rock is an important goal. I have a modified slide hammer, like an axle bearing puller, that is great for removing split shanks and the heads of a Rawl 5 piece. People have used a wide assortment of other tools to remove bolts, just remember the minimal scarring goal. Those commonly used Rawl's need to be disassembled: loosen the bolt, tap it in flush to unseat the head from the expansion sleeve, finish removing the bolt, fish out the outer sleeve, plastic bushing, and expansion sleeve using needle nose pliers and a bent piece of stiff wire, run the bolt back into the head, and remove that by force of some sort. Holes can be filled with a piece of foam backer rod and the hole plugged with epoxy putty. The putty comes in a stick of the two parts, you cut off a piece and mix it by hand. A small piece of the appropriate rock or dirt can be set in the putty. People who just bash things over with hammers and such should be locked in public stocks and flogged.

I think Kat was referring to the kind of cottomouth most often found around 4:45... Snakes are cool, that's a nice specimen.

Is it sk8able now?

People, I don't want a repeat of the Yellow Jacket Tower accident thread. If you wanna complain about large groups in the mountains, or anything else, please go start a thread in Spray.

This sounds like your answer: accident thread

Yeah, but Ingalls is so busy, there's got to be some other alternatives. Exfoliation Dome is an excellent suggestion.

seen in a summit register: "I was hoping for a piano"

That's a tough order, an axe is a pretty basic tool in these parts, especially early season. If not needed for the approach, it's often used on descent. I'd highly recommend the SE Buttress on Mt Washington in the Olympics (10 pitches or so, not short), but you'll want an axe right now. Go in August and you'll likely be fine without. Rock routes in the Tattosh are nothing to write home about, but its a great scrambling range with splendid views.

Here you go Dude: www.goatse.com

Pfft, you'd have smoked me on the hike in. Besides, inspiration for the outing didn't strike me until 11pm the night before. Do you really own a grigri?