ivan

so your list of "good" presidents includes just 2 of the 43 presidents? washington is an easy choice of course - he does seem an extraordinary man, though he was granted so much deference by his contemporaries that he's pretty damn unfair to compare to any of the other poor bastards who had to stomach the slings and arrows of their opponents - his greatest accomplishment, in hindsight, was establishing a tradition in the executive branch of limiting their terms roosevelt - okay, a fine guy and certainly tough - didn't he steal all of the thunder for his seminal accomplishment from black soldiers though? didn't he rise to office without a public vote? didn't he also defy constitutional checks and balances (for example, with the "great white fleet?") didn't he unabashedly steal from columbia?

you'll note i pointedly said "literate americans" in my original post b/c, as a teacher, i can tell you the "majority of americans" don't know a fucking thing about fdr you say you don't think fdr was a bad president, so how about you go one teensy-bit further and admit that a socialist can be a fine president, eh, so we can set this whole thread ta bed? i can't really fault fdr for trying to pack the courts - they were in his way, and i think he genuinely believed in what he was doing - i'm glad he was stopped, and it's a testament to our constitutional system, yes? i assume you accept lincoln into the pantheon of american heroes though - wasn't he equally overboard as fdr in his eradication of habeaus corpus and contemplation of jailing the chief justice of the supreme court?

can we please stop cozying up to thug-states?

Probably not. okay - that's a strait answer i can work w/ - can you at least admit finally that, to so rank fdr, you exist within a very small fringe of americans? i am willing to concede, necessarily, that you may be the lonely prophet in the wilderness, seeing where others are blind, but, 76 years after the man was elected, when all of the consequences of his counsel have grown clear, the vast majority of literate americans rank fdr as one of our greatest presidents - doesn't it seem a wee bit presumptuous to think your evaluations more adept or insightful? as a second question, why do you assume obama's policies would swing more leftward than fdr's? or that our illustrious system of checks n' balances would be more likely to fail now than then (especially given the # of conservatives in the courts!?!)

Obviously, I don't think he was a bad leader re the war. (But his order to load incendiaries onto B29s and go after civilian population centers in Japan was pretty barbarian even by my standards.) But if you take a look at how short-lived the previous economic depressions under Van Buren (late 1830's) and Cleveland/McKinley (panic of 1893) were, it's easy to see how resisting populist demands for federal relief exemplified true leadership--even if it did cost them politically. Now Bush and the Dems in congress have started us down the same path and, like FDR, Obama will only deepen what has already begun. (Although I would equate Obama more with a Eugene Debs than an FDR.) so...good president or not? this is VERY relevant to the original subject. can a socialist in fact still be a very good leader of our country?

FDR absolutely was socialist, and his alphabet soup programs only deepened and prolonged The Great Depression. Fortunately, we had a supreme court that still believed in the constitution. Do you recall how FDR tried to circumvent that little obstacle? Will Obama try the same? okay - we're strait on the "what is a socialist" bit then, but you haven't really answered the important question: was he a good president or not? the question gets at the fact that there's much more to a leader than his economic policies (though i think you're pretty fringe in your judgment of those (wikipedia's entry agrees certainly that you're fringe amongst historians, and only a bit less so amongst economists) - are you actually hating on the CCC? FDIC? WPA? TVA? the repeal of prohibition? sure, the court-packing scheme was retarded, but that's exactly why we like our checks'n'balaces system, right?) was he a bad president in his approach to foreign policy? his conduct of ww2? immigration? law and order? i'll grant you he was far from enlightened on racial issues

FW - it appears you would consider FDR a socialist president. in your opinion, was he a good president or not? if so, how were conditions in the 30s and 40s so different from today that a socialist couldn't once again serve us well? if not...well, um, how in the hell could you think that?

no no - leave it blue - it'll make it easier to spot in spray just how useless most wankers there are

"you're wrong!" "no - you're wrong!"

bitch'n (camero)

i appreciate my enhanced ability to :chestbeat: now!

think i've figured out where this is - i'll make it my next project for you, master wallace

jeebus dude! can you like, please not die and shit?

Where in Iraq did you get this information? 'Cause I have a little experience with the place. how about afghanistan? we admitted last week to fucking up and killing 9 afghan soldiers.

seriously! my kids made me fucking insane last night - why are my 5 and 3 year olds already acting like they're in fucking college!?! sleeping till 10 in the morning, never sleeping alone, and never sleeping an earlier than 11 p.m., and not w/o good reason!?!

nice - though seems too fast a pace to properly enjoy so fine a night night climbing and gym workouts were what i had to resort to during the very early days of my 2 kids lives

solo or w/ somebody? my last trip up the corner in the dark i was drunk as a lord and had a blast. ave, beacon!

like proffesional bowling?

perhaps b/c there is no truth, just a bunch of yahoos yammering and yelling at each other through teh intretubes?

that's like, your opinion, man.

naw, that was the SA

hitler sure could do some amazing speeches, but o'bama will never be able to reproduce the sweet adolph comb-over

barry o'bama's infomericial was at least better than ross perot's! wierd bill - you and i voted for the same guy this year i imagine i probably did it for another reason though... i get a supermodel blowjob if he actually wins?!? holy shit, i mighta done tried to persuade some other folks to go my way!

certainly the wierdiest final game of a world series