sexual_chocolate

Now we're really getting into semantic mince-meat.... "All-around 5.11 climbers" can be shown 5.11s that they would piss their collective pants on. Which begs the question: What does it mean to be a solid 5.11 climber? If'n ya don't can't won't do a certain 5.11, ya ain't a "all-around 5.11 climber"? PP: The term "few" places some conditional limits on a given context, regardless of one's peripatetic reasoning.... If I know a "few" climbers, this would limit that sample pool to perhaps 5 in size. Now if a few of those climb X, Y, or Z, "few" would still denote a number which the term refers to: "Amounting to or consisting of a small number: one of my few bad habits. Being more than one but indefinitely small in number: bowled a few strings." (per www.dictionary.com) So given this sordid state of affairs, ALL of my 5.13 climber buds could be "all-around 5.11 climbers", since the sample pool is but a "few".... Ummmm....so there. [ 08-22-2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: sexual chocolate ]

I only know a few 5.13 climbers! [ 08-22-2002, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: sexual chocolate ]

PP, maybe sport-climbing is the only thing that interests them? Take the average 5.13 sporty, teach him/her some traddie techniques, and I bet quickly they would be able to lead 5.12 trad....Sport-climbing gives the same athleticism required on harder trad, don't you think? BTW, at least a few of the 5.13 climbers I know are quite good on trad, with 5.12 gear on-sight abilities....

I did say "fairly fit", not 15 lbs overweight. And in a few months, "fairly fit" becomes "very fit" with proper training and diet. And yes, I do believe his name was Gene, and he would hit the rock with just the drill, over and over until the drill would finally stay in the hole he had created. Then he would hammer.

I believe Popeye said "I yam what I yam and that's ALL that I yam". I also would completely agree with whoever said 5.11 is closer to 4th class than it is to 14c. I don't think there's any question about that one. Most anyone fairly fit could climb a select 5.11 in a matter of months with proper coaching and training; 14c? Years.... if....

I think he realized the evil of his sticky rubber ways, and he's polishing off his hobnails!

Yes, yes, I've seen the cheap crass knock-offs inspired by the original, yet knock-offs they will always remain. Nice try. Now where did Dwayner go? We were having such a nice discussion....

The Moondance is not a technology, it is an art. Due to its complexities, it may at times seem technologically advanced, yet it is important to always bear in mind the fact that it is an ART.

"...you can theoretically make the shoes ever-more sticky and pretty soon that long featureless slab of 5.13 becomes a no-hands route." But the bar gets raised every time! Technology is a product of our mind, our reasoning mind, which is a product of our evolutionary ability to survive. It's not necessarily a bad thing! So what if a 5.13 slab becomes a no-hands route! (Won't happen!) Then we move on to the next challenge! I know, I know, "but climbing is sacred." Well, "I believe in everything, nothing is sacred. I believe in nothing, everything is sacred."

quote: Originally posted by Goat Boy: Zeus smote many a sketchy pilgrim drilling a bolt ladder up to the heights. Here’s your enlightenment, sport. It's funny how Luddites use the very technologies they decry!

"The point I was trying to make is that if you change the "rules" and, for example, allow unlimited rehersal, hanging off of gear, etc., then we are all ultimately 5.14 climbers if we choose to spend our lives that way." Possibly, yes. Similar to an archer practicing day after day the sport he/she loves, or a sprinter running intervals, or a chess player studying moves. Your point, again?

Pope, that is.

Right on. Wish him luck.

And upon reaching the summit of Olympus, Zeus (?) said to them, "why the hell didn't you just clip some bolts on the way up? You can't find wisdom if you're DEAD before you find it!"

BTW, is "Dwayner" related to "Pope"? They seem to speak with a similar "Tonal"....

BTW, as I seemingly speak out against the sentiments of Dwayner, please note that I do it with compassion for his feelings, ie. I feel his pain. Don't laugh, I say this sincerely. I can tell he is sincere, and he speaks eloquently of his beliefs. I also think that the disussions will continue (and continue and continue) here and elsewhere, with many public policy decisions yet to be made regarding the use of bolts on public lands. I also think that the reasoned voice (although at times a bit... ahem... irrational, anachronistic, and reactionary) of Dwayner will contribute greatly to his cause, much to the chagrin of the bolt-dependent climber, for not many on the "other side" of the issue speak with such clarity and wisdom. Having said that, I think it's about time I headed out the door to clip some bolts on this 130 foot piece of absolutely wretchedly ill sport climbing at the World Wall. It's sick, it's wrong, it absolutely dispossesses me, yet I go back, again and again and again.....Wish me luck!

Hey PP, thanks for the welcome-back. It's been a while since I've checked in. Cascade Climbers, Unite!

I don't know if difficulty, pure "objective" difficulty is something that motivates an individual such as Dwayner. His ethics and motivations were developed when climbing was more of an isolationist's pursuit, especially here in the NW (is Dwayner from here?). Now climbing has become mainstream, thanks in large part to the ease of clipping bolts or the ease of laying a crash pad on the ground (plus, it's fun?). If anything, I feel sadness when hearing Dwayner's lamentations about the changes in "our" sport. Perhaps if he could develop a little compassion for the human condition, and understand that things do indeed change, he might be able to actually engage in the ENJOYMENT of climbing, climbing in ALL its aspects?

Ummm.....My vote for the hardest 5.9: ROTC at Midnight Rock. For a 5.9, that thing is HARD!

yes, mf206er, i've gotten on Dwarf Toss, and you're right, it is 10d at least. Also the funnest route at index right now!

Nietzsche went crazy; what kind of air was he breathing?

Anyone know how the decision came out concerning the extension of the wilderness trail-head parking permit requirement?

I third the suggestion above. We got to Tahoe in 13 hours last December. So figure 17 to Bishop using this route. Are other routes faster?

I haven't seen it mentioned yet; a little surprised. I suppose it's not well-known yet, but I would imagine this will change soon, due to the magnificence of the climb. I actually forget what he named it, but.... The north face of Mt. Baring. A new route established by Brian Burdo, at considerable effort and expense, ascending the north arete of Dolomite Tower. 13 pitches of incredible positions, culminating in a sizable roof at pitch 9 or so. Very repeatable, very enjoyable, very athletic, and very much one of my all-time favorite multi-pitch endeavors.

Haha! Illusion Dweller sucks! Everyone agrees with me, Matt Anderson! And if you know the secret beta on ROTC, it CAN'T be harder than 10b! Coarse and Buggy? You don't NEED any beta on that climb; just climb it, and have fun on the best 10b ever.