sexual_chocolate

But alas, I did forget: troglodytes can't count! (They're not too good at spelling, either. www.dictionary.com )

Hello Caveman! I believe that Bonzo is most certainly having more than ONE crisis.

True, but one isn't needed. "Dork" works well enough.

Aright alright Bonzo, we will refrain from giving you further identity crises; from now on, Bonzo is Bonzo. How fitting. Now will you please behave yourself? Or is it Bedtime already? And I'm sure my adam's apple is about as high as you can reach, Bonzo; but your height does put your mouth in a rather strategic location....

You are tying your little brain into knots, trying to understand things which the brain of a troglodyte was simply not meant to understand. The conceptual thought-processes that characterize homo-sapiens did not begin to develop dramatically until long after your extinction. Yet, be comforted by the fact that you are quite an anomaly; against all odds, you are here. And, you are not alone! A further testament to perseverance! The hippie love-fest is going swimmingly, as always. Love is another difficult subject for troglodytes, no? But I trust you can learn....

Oh Bonzo, oh Caveman (or should I say Caveman and Caveman); silly children. How amusingly you cavort in your ignorance and folly. I trust you have already made your vasectomy appointments? The world of the sane awaits confirmation.... [ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: sexual chocolate ]

First of all, let me apologize to mtnrgr for my comment about Rudyard Kipling. It was a bit cutting, I'd have to say. And secondly, it has become quite obvious that people will believe what they want to believe, and for most, this is non-negotiable. It certainly seems apparent on this thread. At this point, it has become too much of a chore to keep responding to individuals whose only interest is to keep trumpeting their own prejudices and (violent!) tendencies! Yes, we have now successfully moved into the "all protesters are bad", "college campuses are breeding grounds for liberals", and even "beat up the protesters" realm. How truly enlightened and refreshing! But also eye-opening. I can honestly say that I had NO IDEA that such recalcitrantly violent jingoists actually existed in the climbing community. I realize that this topic stirs up passion, but when people actually started making physical threats against individuals they disagree with, well, it blew my mind. I am actually starting to think that perhaps Rush Limbaugh is really a nw climber masquerading as a talk-show host. I guess I got the answer to my original question, and then some. Hey, and that's ok. I learned some stuff. Thought about some things differently. Developed some respect for a few individuals and where they are coming from. And finally, I came even more firmly to the conclusion that violence is not the answer to any problem. The proponents of violent responses seem to be quite violent themselves, so the cycle just seems to perpetuate itself ad nauseum. History shows this to be true, for anyone willing to look. Luckily I have seen alternatives to violence in my own life, so perhaps this gives me the ability to respond differently than perhaps some others. So, as I sign off from this thread, I wish all of you peace and happiness in your lives. My prayers are with you.

mtmrgr: Rudyard Kipling wasn't a fool; your quote from his works as suggestive of support for your aggressive reactivism would have him turning in his grave.

Captain Caveman: Do you have any pictures of Fossil Rock that you could post? I'd like to see the area; and maybe others would too. Anyone have any?

I tried to find fossil rock once; found a big boulder with rocks and plastic screwed on. Is there more, and where is it? I walked out the dirt road until I saw the big bolted boulder on my right, down in the gully. Where's the rest, and is a winter visit worth it? Anything stay dry?

Panther: do you think that all opposition can be effectively wiped out by employing a scorched-earth policy? Will not the opposition eventually respond in kind, or can a global police-state be effected, there-by squelching rebellion before it can happen? Just curious as to what you think.

Just teasing, caveman. True, I wasn't there. And no, trask, maybe that seemed like pot-stirring to you, but I meant it. I guess that's the price I pay for being a smart-ass sometimes; my motives are always questioned. But the soap-box post was sincere. And dwayner: I don't think it's nice to mock a discussion by calling its participants "arm-chair quarter-backs". These sorts of things need to be discussed, I think; I think discussion can help everyone in hashing out ideas and perhaps learning something we didn't know before. You should understand this, ESPECIALLY if you are an educator. I know that this discussion has had that effect on me. Only by opening myself up to new ideas and opinions can I question my assumptions, and come to understand things anew.

Are you SURE you didn't see me there last night? Hmmm....

Coincidence? Two bushes, two wars? The burning bushes? Does pope indeed seem to possess the nobility of speech and manner such as I? Perhaps I was wrong in my initial assessments of him. Hmmm.... Caveman, I challenge you to challenge yourself. Remember, your fellow clan-members went extinct due to mal-adaptive responses to an ever-changing environment. Let us not forget what Jesus came here to teach; a path of love, wisdom, fairness and forgiveness. Perhaps some of you resonate more with the teachings of Gandhi; read him. Mother Teresa? A wonderful and intelligent woman. Maybe the Buddha seems appropriate to you? I cannot think of wiser and more practical teachings than those of the Buddha. I don't endorse a blind faith in any religious figure or their teachings, but so much insight and understanding can be gleaned from an individual who has seemingly moved past the blind genetic determinism that so often seems to be spinning itself out in the global power-plays currently in fashion. Unquestioningly we accept the syllogistic logic of war, while turning all of our cynicism and scorn on those who preach non-violence; does this not seem backwards? Should we not question the practice of violence even more penetratingly, turning a trenchant eye to its immediate effects and future consequences? Hey, I know I'm preaching here; just musing out loud. So.... Soap-box, anyone?

Rodchester: I think a fair and equally represented world court COULD be something endorsed by all; right now, it's decisions are openly flaunted, and as a result, has no legitimacy or respect. (Remember the Nicaragua war and the world court's rulings? The US openly and arrogantly flaunted them.) I personally feel there to be some potential there. And it has nothing to do with "ethnocentrisity and arrogance." Our CURRENT protocols are guilty of that. Believe me, the people would want a voice, and call for it. " If you have ever spent any time with the man on the dirt street (Palastinians) the VAST majority say there is only one way, either we kill all of them or they kill all of us. Now I know the Palastinian leadership and thier maketing teams puts it differently, the man on the dirt street with a rock in his hand does not." It depends on when you talk to the Palestinians. Of course, right now, with passions on fire as they are, people become vengeful and angry on BOTH sides of the (same) coin. So much trust has been destroyed. But during other less inflamed times, the greatest wish by the masses has been peace; same for the Israelis. Of course it's a difficult situation, but we shouldn't abandon the high-road; we KNOW what the results are there. It's like our genetic default switch is almost always set to "violence"; it doesn't fix anything. BTW, the "dog fart" joke is a standard one, repeated often, yet telling of the amount of insecurity and distrust present. What would you think if the BOMBS falling on your neighbourhoods said "MADE IN THE USA"?

I'll be the long-haired guy, driving up in my VW bus. Hey, I'll have incense and kaya for everybody. And a hug!

Solutions? Like I stated earlier, even though it poses problems, intelligence-gathering should continue, but not at the cost of the US constitution. Every effort should be made at uncovering future planned plots, every effort legally available to us. (Under no circumstances should this intelligence-gathering be used as an excuse for harassing legitimate opposition groups.) Another solution? Every human should make an effort to understand international relations, beginning by reading any and all information available, with HEALTHY skepticism. This means NOT dismissing ideas and opinions simply because we disagree with them, and not blindly agreeing, simply because it sounds like something we're used to believing. I listen to Rush Limbaugh sometimes! And Noam Chomsky, and Edward Said, and CNN, and I visit www.zmag.org . We owe it to ourselves and each other to understand this world we live in; I think so, at least. Another tactic: Understand our mistakes, and begin to rectify them, and communicate this desire to the Muslim world. Specifically, begin support for democratic reforms in the Muslim world. We have supported unresponsive dictatorships for the sake of oil (Saudi Arabia, among others) or regional influence (Iraq, Pakistan, among others) but unfortunately, this flies in the face of all of our higher principled ideals. And, yes, a coalitional attempt to bring bin Laden to justice. This does NOT necessitate war. Intelligence-gathering and international pressure, I believe, can bring this about. And Todd brought up an excellent point about ending our reliance on oil. This is a must, environmentally AND politically. This is a beginning.

AlpineK, I didn't understand your post. What was it asking, and who was it asking?

A large portion of the world's population is voiceless; if we continue to promote this voicelessness, then I truly believe that world stability and peace will continue to evade us; loud and violent voices will necessarily arise, (Read: bin Laden) because people will not suffer voicelessness forever. Now I guess the question is: How could we respond to the immediate threat facing us? I think part of our response has been correct; a massive intelligence gathering, aimed at uncovering further plots against us and others. This seems to me to be an important component. Another response, and equally important I think, is a reduction in the war- and anger-fueling rhetoric being spewed by our leadership, internationally. It seems as though the rhetoric has been like pouring gas on the fire, and does nothing but further alienate those who already are alienated. bin Laden would have been a small blip on the radar screen if there wasn't the degree of alienation and disenfranchisement that exists in so many Middle-Eastern countries. (I think so, at least. Desperate people resort to desperate means, I think.) So these, I think, are SOME responses that we have at our disposal in every crisis that we face. I know there are more, but that's all I'll say right now....

"I appreciate your well thought out reply, but, you and I are going to disagree on this forever, as I firmly belive there are people in this world who do not respond to or respect anything short of violence." There are people in this world who have never known anything but violence. And as a result, they have come to see violence as a necessary means to an end. Our nation is guilty of promoting this idea. There are areas of the world where our only input has been violence. Violence begets violence. Jesus taught this. The Buddha taught this. Gandhi taught this. If we don't show the world that there is a better way than violence, then who will? I firmly believe that we, as the worlds only super-power, have a huge responsibility in showing to the world the principles that this nation was built on; namely, fairness and opportunity for everyone, equality and justice, an appreciation for the sanctity of human life, freedom for all. I think so far we've strayed from internationalizing these ideals because it's served our short-sighted goals to do so. Heck, 5% of the world's population consuming 40% of it's resources? I think the quicker we can rectify these injustices, the quicker we will approach a world that will be safer for us AND our children.

CC: I wouldn't want to overlook 9/11; no way, no how. I am still incredibly saddened by it, and by the on-going pain of the families involved. And now another plane goes down in the area. Good God. "I suppose there could be a few cases of justification. That does not let me overlook killing over 4k people including harmless children." The justifications for their resentment should NOT let you overlook the killing. I don't think justification should let ANYONE overlook killing, but I am so afraid that we are doing exactly that right now in Afghanistan. We think this war is so needed that we are willing to overlook the deaths of civilians JUST AS INNOCENT as the victims of 9/11. And there ARE civilians dying. The deaths simply aren't being reported, because the media seems to think that to report these deaths would somehow be unpatriotic. So I think this answers your question too, Bronco. Of course their anger and resentment is justified, but I'm also proposing that retaliation based on anger simply is NOT the best response. I think it's easy to lose sight of this, especially when the Taliban just vacated Kabul. This can give the appearance that war works. But to what end? When will the cycle come to an end? I really really do believe we have the capability and insight and intelligence, as human beings, to respond to situations in a non-violent way and, as a result, help create a world that will be SAFER for us and our children.

How long did it take you to get your order, and did you pay with a credit card? Just curious.

Hey CC. Do you think any of the resentment might be justified, or do you think it's all just brainwashing?

Hey Rodchester, thanks for the reply. If not here, then where, with the same crowd? My point was, if not articulated clearly, that certainly within the Taliban there are individuals who were trained by the CIA. "It should also be noted that it was not until recently, 1998, that bin Laden decided to carry the Palastiian cause as his own. You see bin Laden is a wonderful marketing guy. He understands propoganda unlike any other Islamic fundamentalist. He has identified many down troden Islamic cuases and decided to carry their banner, only because it helps his cause." I don't understand bin Laden, but I think the important point is that he is able to use the Palestinian cause as a rallying cry because it is understood, by any thinking human being, to be a situation where US policy is wrong, plain and simple. If we were to correct our behaviour, then we might have the legs of righteousness(!) to stand on; as it is, we don't, because of our duplicity. What was the total US financial support of the Mujahedeen? I know that the Saudis et al backed them and provided not only financial support, but also fighters (jihad!); yet wasn't our monetary support in the hundreds of millions, if not billions? And I agree that much thought has gone into the bombing campaign. I just wonder if it would have been needed if the US played its part in complying and thereby strengthening international law and the power of the world court?

CC: What do you think caused the terrorist attacks of 9/11? Do you think there is any connection to the resentment that so many around the world feel towards the US? And if you do think there is a connection, what do you think causes the resentment in the first place?