sexual_chocolate

Are you SURE you didn't see me there last night? Hmmm....

Coincidence? Two bushes, two wars? The burning bushes? Does pope indeed seem to possess the nobility of speech and manner such as I? Perhaps I was wrong in my initial assessments of him. Hmmm.... Caveman, I challenge you to challenge yourself. Remember, your fellow clan-members went extinct due to mal-adaptive responses to an ever-changing environment. Let us not forget what Jesus came here to teach; a path of love, wisdom, fairness and forgiveness. Perhaps some of you resonate more with the teachings of Gandhi; read him. Mother Teresa? A wonderful and intelligent woman. Maybe the Buddha seems appropriate to you? I cannot think of wiser and more practical teachings than those of the Buddha. I don't endorse a blind faith in any religious figure or their teachings, but so much insight and understanding can be gleaned from an individual who has seemingly moved past the blind genetic determinism that so often seems to be spinning itself out in the global power-plays currently in fashion. Unquestioningly we accept the syllogistic logic of war, while turning all of our cynicism and scorn on those who preach non-violence; does this not seem backwards? Should we not question the practice of violence even more penetratingly, turning a trenchant eye to its immediate effects and future consequences? Hey, I know I'm preaching here; just musing out loud. So.... Soap-box, anyone?

Rodchester: I think a fair and equally represented world court COULD be something endorsed by all; right now, it's decisions are openly flaunted, and as a result, has no legitimacy or respect. (Remember the Nicaragua war and the world court's rulings? The US openly and arrogantly flaunted them.) I personally feel there to be some potential there. And it has nothing to do with "ethnocentrisity and arrogance." Our CURRENT protocols are guilty of that. Believe me, the people would want a voice, and call for it. " If you have ever spent any time with the man on the dirt street (Palastinians) the VAST majority say there is only one way, either we kill all of them or they kill all of us. Now I know the Palastinian leadership and thier maketing teams puts it differently, the man on the dirt street with a rock in his hand does not." It depends on when you talk to the Palestinians. Of course, right now, with passions on fire as they are, people become vengeful and angry on BOTH sides of the (same) coin. So much trust has been destroyed. But during other less inflamed times, the greatest wish by the masses has been peace; same for the Israelis. Of course it's a difficult situation, but we shouldn't abandon the high-road; we KNOW what the results are there. It's like our genetic default switch is almost always set to "violence"; it doesn't fix anything. BTW, the "dog fart" joke is a standard one, repeated often, yet telling of the amount of insecurity and distrust present. What would you think if the BOMBS falling on your neighbourhoods said "MADE IN THE USA"?

I'll be the long-haired guy, driving up in my VW bus. Hey, I'll have incense and kaya for everybody. And a hug!

Solutions? Like I stated earlier, even though it poses problems, intelligence-gathering should continue, but not at the cost of the US constitution. Every effort should be made at uncovering future planned plots, every effort legally available to us. (Under no circumstances should this intelligence-gathering be used as an excuse for harassing legitimate opposition groups.) Another solution? Every human should make an effort to understand international relations, beginning by reading any and all information available, with HEALTHY skepticism. This means NOT dismissing ideas and opinions simply because we disagree with them, and not blindly agreeing, simply because it sounds like something we're used to believing. I listen to Rush Limbaugh sometimes! And Noam Chomsky, and Edward Said, and CNN, and I visit www.zmag.org . We owe it to ourselves and each other to understand this world we live in; I think so, at least. Another tactic: Understand our mistakes, and begin to rectify them, and communicate this desire to the Muslim world. Specifically, begin support for democratic reforms in the Muslim world. We have supported unresponsive dictatorships for the sake of oil (Saudi Arabia, among others) or regional influence (Iraq, Pakistan, among others) but unfortunately, this flies in the face of all of our higher principled ideals. And, yes, a coalitional attempt to bring bin Laden to justice. This does NOT necessitate war. Intelligence-gathering and international pressure, I believe, can bring this about. And Todd brought up an excellent point about ending our reliance on oil. This is a must, environmentally AND politically. This is a beginning.

AlpineK, I didn't understand your post. What was it asking, and who was it asking?

A large portion of the world's population is voiceless; if we continue to promote this voicelessness, then I truly believe that world stability and peace will continue to evade us; loud and violent voices will necessarily arise, (Read: bin Laden) because people will not suffer voicelessness forever. Now I guess the question is: How could we respond to the immediate threat facing us? I think part of our response has been correct; a massive intelligence gathering, aimed at uncovering further plots against us and others. This seems to me to be an important component. Another response, and equally important I think, is a reduction in the war- and anger-fueling rhetoric being spewed by our leadership, internationally. It seems as though the rhetoric has been like pouring gas on the fire, and does nothing but further alienate those who already are alienated. bin Laden would have been a small blip on the radar screen if there wasn't the degree of alienation and disenfranchisement that exists in so many Middle-Eastern countries. (I think so, at least. Desperate people resort to desperate means, I think.) So these, I think, are SOME responses that we have at our disposal in every crisis that we face. I know there are more, but that's all I'll say right now....

"I appreciate your well thought out reply, but, you and I are going to disagree on this forever, as I firmly belive there are people in this world who do not respond to or respect anything short of violence." There are people in this world who have never known anything but violence. And as a result, they have come to see violence as a necessary means to an end. Our nation is guilty of promoting this idea. There are areas of the world where our only input has been violence. Violence begets violence. Jesus taught this. The Buddha taught this. Gandhi taught this. If we don't show the world that there is a better way than violence, then who will? I firmly believe that we, as the worlds only super-power, have a huge responsibility in showing to the world the principles that this nation was built on; namely, fairness and opportunity for everyone, equality and justice, an appreciation for the sanctity of human life, freedom for all. I think so far we've strayed from internationalizing these ideals because it's served our short-sighted goals to do so. Heck, 5% of the world's population consuming 40% of it's resources? I think the quicker we can rectify these injustices, the quicker we will approach a world that will be safer for us AND our children.

CC: I wouldn't want to overlook 9/11; no way, no how. I am still incredibly saddened by it, and by the on-going pain of the families involved. And now another plane goes down in the area. Good God. "I suppose there could be a few cases of justification. That does not let me overlook killing over 4k people including harmless children." The justifications for their resentment should NOT let you overlook the killing. I don't think justification should let ANYONE overlook killing, but I am so afraid that we are doing exactly that right now in Afghanistan. We think this war is so needed that we are willing to overlook the deaths of civilians JUST AS INNOCENT as the victims of 9/11. And there ARE civilians dying. The deaths simply aren't being reported, because the media seems to think that to report these deaths would somehow be unpatriotic. So I think this answers your question too, Bronco. Of course their anger and resentment is justified, but I'm also proposing that retaliation based on anger simply is NOT the best response. I think it's easy to lose sight of this, especially when the Taliban just vacated Kabul. This can give the appearance that war works. But to what end? When will the cycle come to an end? I really really do believe we have the capability and insight and intelligence, as human beings, to respond to situations in a non-violent way and, as a result, help create a world that will be SAFER for us and our children.

How long did it take you to get your order, and did you pay with a credit card? Just curious.

Hey CC. Do you think any of the resentment might be justified, or do you think it's all just brainwashing?

Hey Rodchester, thanks for the reply. If not here, then where, with the same crowd? My point was, if not articulated clearly, that certainly within the Taliban there are individuals who were trained by the CIA. "It should also be noted that it was not until recently, 1998, that bin Laden decided to carry the Palastiian cause as his own. You see bin Laden is a wonderful marketing guy. He understands propoganda unlike any other Islamic fundamentalist. He has identified many down troden Islamic cuases and decided to carry their banner, only because it helps his cause." I don't understand bin Laden, but I think the important point is that he is able to use the Palestinian cause as a rallying cry because it is understood, by any thinking human being, to be a situation where US policy is wrong, plain and simple. If we were to correct our behaviour, then we might have the legs of righteousness(!) to stand on; as it is, we don't, because of our duplicity. What was the total US financial support of the Mujahedeen? I know that the Saudis et al backed them and provided not only financial support, but also fighters (jihad!); yet wasn't our monetary support in the hundreds of millions, if not billions? And I agree that much thought has gone into the bombing campaign. I just wonder if it would have been needed if the US played its part in complying and thereby strengthening international law and the power of the world court?

CC: What do you think caused the terrorist attacks of 9/11? Do you think there is any connection to the resentment that so many around the world feel towards the US? And if you do think there is a connection, what do you think causes the resentment in the first place?

And a note to the person who served overseas and was shot at: I'm wondering what country that happened in? There are many countries where we have a military presence, yet that presence is not welcomed by the general population.

Oops, I hit submit instead of review! I meant to continue with a nod to David Parker; I'm glad you had a chance to express your thoughts and opinions. Take care.

The CIA trained, armed, and funded the soviet resistance in Afghanistan, which then became known as the Mujahedeen. Osama bin Laden was one of the characters who was trained by the CIA, as were many of the current Taliban. I understand the frustration that some of you feel in seeing this topic here on a climbing board, and after starting the thread myself, I had similar feelings. But after seeing the responses this morning, I'm glad for its existence; it's at least giving people a chance to voice their opinions and share them with a diverse group of others, and in the process, perhaps coming to a better understanding of the situation themselves. One thing I do wish, though: I do wish that the personal attacks could be lessened. I know this is a volatile subject, but if we simply slander others for having views different than our own, aren't we doing exactly what the people who most of us oppose are doing? Of course, I'm speaking of the Taliban, and their form of intolerance. I don't agree with their intolerance, and it's just as hard to see from the Americans who seem to be the most opposed to them. So let's lighten up on each other, huh? By the way, an interesting series of presentations are being conducted on the UW campus, for those who are interested. I went to one last night at Kane Hall. Among those speaking were an Afghani doctor and a couple of American doctors who had spent time there. Very informative. A slide-show was also presented, which was wonderful, because it gave the country a face, something that didn't really exist for me before. All this week there are presentations at Kane Hall, for those interested. And thanks for all the thoughtful responses

I'm not sure I know whether or not to take these responses seriously. Is every subject open for sarcasm and whimsical treatment? Well, it is a climber's forum, after all....right?

Aborigine's 11b. It's on par with any other 11b I've ever done.

Okay, I'm against the war, so the opinion poll seems to be running at 66% in favor, 33% against, with Alpine Tom giving an articulate and illuminating response, yet refusing to be counted as either for or against. Any others?

No, not trolling. I was simply wondering if there was any original thinking happening in the climbing community. Maybe everyone is sick of the subject? I do know that there is some diversity in this forum, and was wondering if that diversity was expressing itself in any way towards the war. It just seems funny to me that we are bombing a country, and threatened by further terrorist acts, yet no one is talking about it. Why?

So I was curious what the climbing community is thinking about the war. About 80% of the general US public seems to support the war; I wonder if the percentages are similar in the climbing community. Any ideas?

"Yes, but teflon doesn't stick!" One of my favorites! Here's some more: "Good God, It's like a Buick dealership in here! Who let in the mocktards?" "Oh fine. Be that way." "Did you know "squeezin'" rhymes with "pleezin'?" "El Torro, ho!" "Oh my god, not another mountain!" "Hey, a fish could live in there." "Orbit is defined by various factors that DON'T include personal hygiene." I forget the rest.

But has it been repeated?

Ahh I see, a different location...fair enough! So the election is over, hmmmm. I really don't know anything about his opponent; I was simply interested in seeing his name again, and how politics and other mechanisms might be playing out in that country.

(I can tell this is your first time...?)