Terminal_Gravity

Any comment Peter P?

About five weeks ago on a thread about fear ( and how to overcome it when leading on trad rock) I was accused of making an irresponsible post. I shared my thoughts on free soloing well within ones limits to overcome the mental crutch of reliance on gear as a way to deal with fear. Certainly, a bold technique and one that is arguably un-safe. Anyway, Peter Puget called me on it and accused me of being irresponsible and, I assume of being reckless with advice that may endanger those that took it. Peter was obviously upset. For the record... Thank you Peter, you brought up a very good point and I, for one, appreciate your concern. Maybe I did err. A large number of the valuable posts on this board contain advice. Just as equipment manufacturers give the standard "mountaineering is dangerous" and "know how to use this gear" disclaimer, I think it is assumed that the advice freely offered on this board should have a disclaimer. "Use it only if you know it is right for you" To think that anyone will take advice from this board as set in stone doctrine and then go out and endanger themselves is disturbing to me. I suppose it is possible, but I hope that climbers are more able to make their own choices and be more responsible for themselves then the typical sue happy consumer public. Clearly, the sharing of views, experiences, mistakes and opinions on this board is what is valuable to the readers. So, where is the line drawn on irresponsible posts, or is there such a thing??? What are your veiws and opinions on this subject?

Nice job! Good TR...thanks.

tlg, did you find a good price on one? Care to share? ;D

quote: Originally posted by thelawgoddess: i'd prefer a good merlot next to a nice rare tenderloin medallion. My kind o' woman.

MF206, we all have our priorities. I am afraid to acctually add it up, but I probably spend more on tequilla than I do on climbing gear ( and I get free beer). I bet most of the posters have spent more on their revered Subie's than climbing gear with the rational that it gets them climbing when in fact it makes them hold down a full time job. Nice set up, Dru. [ 08-21-2002, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

Nice Job, glad you had fun. Cheers.

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: TGis right at the top and I believe iresponsible at the bottom. Take this quote:"...because gear fails, ussually because of human errors or improper use, but it fails." Simply it is absurd. Imagine you are in a car heading toward a wall and stepped on the gas not the brakes. TG would call it gear failure! Enough on this. To encourage some unknown person that they solo to get rid of anxiety fear while climbing is just plain reckless. I can't tell you how to not be fearful maybe it is a good thing you are,maybe it is just a short lived phase. I once on a several week climbing trip I went from climbing 5.10 trad fairly consistantly to backing off a well protected 5.7 because I was scared. My partners thought I was going crazy and where somewhat irritated I was wasting their time backing off route after route. Fortunately for the rest of our trip they had fun leading and I had fun following. After awhile I was back to leading and eventually lead harder and more difficult to protect climbs than I had ever climbed before. I say relax and climb and try not to force the issue. PP PP, maybe you are right. Maybe it is irresponsible to have suggested it, but it worked for me. I don't feel that I should have to include a manufacture's warning to one of these posts. It has been said before that ultimately we are all responsible for our actions. I would hope that shakey can learn from my shared experience and make his own decisions based on his knowledge of himself. as far as your example...no, clearly the car failed to keep from hitting the wall because of human error just as if someone rap's off the end of a rope it is not the ropes fault... but the result is the same.

quote: Originally posted by Greg W: If it hasn't been mentioned before: aid climb on toprope; this will help you develop confidence in your gear placements. Greg W I agree.

In my opinion the "falling is okay" or "fall on pro to learn to trust it" approach that several posters condon is sheer folly. (Sport exepted) I have taken over 20 trad falls, one grounder when a piece popped and I broke an ankle once when a piece held. Falling is NOT okay. Learn to NOT fall! The gear is a back-up. You, your focus, and your experience should be the primary part of climbing safely. Why do you think most fatal accidents happen on rappel...because gear fails, ussually because of human errors or improper use, but it fails. That is the one thing that you can count on. It is a fact of climbing that must be excepted. So, Shakey, here is my suggestion. It has worked for me. Free solo. Yes, you read it right and it might sound crazy. But if you do it right, take baby steps, climb known rock way way under your ability, solid and short at first, you will learn focus and confidence and you should develope the skill of mental calmness. When I now lead and place a solid piece I get this rush of "wow that is so cool..Protection; what a concept".

I agree with you iain. That mirrors my thoughts as well. I should have said that I would NOT want a precedent set. I can imagine, however, where gross negligence in the mountains could create a triable case. I expect it has happened, but I tend not to pay attention to such crap and just try to have a good time and climb. BTW, I've climbed the south side regular route on Hood a few times during peak season and have had the summit to myself. I just make sure I'm back down to the top of Palmer by 2:00 am at the latest. PS Thanks for the support, Mountainman...I knew My post would not be popular. [ 08-13-2002, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

Galen's photos, style and ethics was probably the biggest single influence for me when I started climbing. Tragic. I'm at a loss for words

Frankly, if somebody's actions cause injury or death of another the question of leagal culpibility is apropriate. If somebody that does not know how to drive or is incapable runs over innocent bystanders at a bus stop there is leagle responsibility if it can be shown that they knew they couldn't drive. This has happened in Florida with old people losing there faculties as they get older and driving anyway..and killing people. I am not saying that the people on Hood that precipitated the accident were so inexperienced and stupid for being there that they should be charged. I don't know, but some of the postings on this board suggested that they were way to inexperienced. (that is saying it lightly) That being said, I am not sure I would want a leagal precident like this being set. But I, for one, don't like gumbies above me adding to my subjective exposure and I feel that when stupid actions kill people there should be some consequences for the perpetrators.

Nice picture mattp, thanks. Any possibility you could E-mail it to me? tgbsteve@eoni.com jedi, when are you heading up there? I may be on it around 9/17. The above posters are correct about Robson. The south face/swartz ledges made me turn with tail between my legs last year on a solo attempt.

quote: Originally posted by iain: quote:Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: Isn't threading the rope directly through webbing a commonly regarded no-no? I don't see any problem with it if you are just doing a single rappel. It also spares you the task of threading the rope through a ring (you can just tie the webbing over the midpoint). I've done it plenty of times. It's those stupid punks who lower in that setup who get themselves killed. Anyone disagree w/ me? I absolutely agree with you. WTF? Sure there will be more friction, but if that is not a problem so what!? The webbing may not be suitable for the next team after you pull through, though.

My dumbest thing I've ever done and close to the dumbest I've heard of was attempting to climb the nose (El Cap) with a guy I had never climbed with based on his reputation and self proclaimed ability. And to top it off he wanted to invite a friend at the last minute, who ( as it turned out) had never led, jumared or top roped anything harder than 5.8. I acctually led (and hauled) every pitch and got 11 pitches up (in 2 days...slow beyond belief) before I finally grasped reality and gave it up. As a side note; this "experienced yosimite hardman" droped our un-opened liter of Jack Daniels from sickle while pulling out the sleeping bags the first night. The gentle breeze wafting up the face let me smell the whiskey most of the night from where it broke 20 feet down. Doh!! Rappeling into the dark we ended up spending the night on a 8" by 4 foot ledge. My butt was numb for days.

What's your opinion? I think that being poor and from Yugoslavia, he had the motivation to lie, so he could get financial benifit and support his family. He has publicly stated that he will not compromise his family's well being for climbing. It seems that it would be an easy stretch to compromise honesty. Of course he is a visionary and brilliant climber anyway and maybe us lowly cc'ers should not even discuss it.

thelawgodess. Be safe and have fun! Be aware of the surprise hole; that should be more of a concern than the known bridge. Give a TR when you get back. BTW, which route?

I should add... I have never had a known bridge to fail on me that I was not able to jump or plant my axe in away that I could avoid falling in. If there is any question as to its safety, I first see if there is a safe alternative ignoring the trudge line. There almost always is even if the alternative is a bit more technically challenging. If not I carefully asses the strength, probe, stab, press with my basket or axe head, see if the bottom is sluffing a bit when pre-weighted, critically look at the connection between the cravasse wall and the bridge. Is it loose wind deposit or is it consolidated snow that has compressed as the bridge has settled into a tappering cravasse. IMO the most suspect is when one ( or rarely both ) walls of ice diverge away from the lip. Once I digest all of my assesments I decide if the risk is worth it. Soloing, I am always prepared to turn around or go another completely different way. Then I carefully, and gingerly step accross, avoiding the weakest point. I hold my axe High, wrist in strap, ready to jump and plant at any shift or sign of failure. Even if you do self belay with a tight rope you are likely to fall aways into the cravasse as the rope tightens and cuts into the snow. Make sure you don't injure yourself in that fall. Screwing around with the trigger of an ascender or holding a rope is going to make it less likely that you avoid falling in if the bridge fails. As in rock climbing, I never plan to fall and do what ever it takes to avoid it. The sport-hangdog ethos does not belong in the head of an alpinest.

tlg, I am not recommending against self belay across a suspect bridge but you should be realistic. It is true that if you are effecient self belay does not take a whole lot of time to set up. But it is still not fool proof and will require a fair amount of extra weight which will slow you down ( a bit) the rest of the time and make it ever so slightly more likely to punch through a surprise bridge. In the Cascades I think that it saves time to be commited to end running suspect bridges and not be lulled into the false security of following the trudge line.

Well said, Norman

quote: Originally posted by payaso: It's Quality versus Quantity my friend. Cool Payaso. My intent is to say that quantity does not nessasarily (never could spell that word) mean that you have to give up quality. As an example: My local gang of psuedo climber's have been talking about this seven peak traverse in the Wallowas for more than a year. You know the type...they always are saying "I've always wanted to do 'this or that' some day" as they sit around drinking beer. I don't mean to chest beat here, I'm really just an overweight geezer, but I do acctually get out. The talk was no one had heard of anybody doing it car-to-car in a day and they knew of only one person doing it from a high camp. I had only Sat. evening to Sunday afternoon free the weekend before last and thought "what the hell". I left my rig at 4:45pm and made the first summit for a spectacular sunset with the moon getting brighter and glistening off the ridge. Close to the 4th summit I sat down to watch the moonlight reflected on a lake below. It was tremendiously beautiful. Later after a bit of 5th class scrambeling I was comeing down the steep ridge of the 7th and got the treat of seeing the blood red (from fires) hyper-enlarged moon set between distant spires. I slept for about a half an hour on some dicey and loose 4th class ledges; waiting for first light. The sunrise was spectacular, pinking up the peaks to the west. I was back home eating pork chops and eggs and drinking Ramos fizzes at 8:30 am. How is that hike lacking in qualitity? And I still got to play with my daughter both days on the weekend. I haven't even mentioned to the gang of poser at my pub that I did it. They help me support my tequila habit and I really don't want them to give up afternoons of drinking beer and acctually go climbing.

I'm not sure I understand the points about moving like a snail so that you can see more beauty. I see a MORE of beautiful terrain BECAUSE I travel fast and far. If I do 50 in a day and can get out 3 days later for a quick peak bag and then for a night hike to watch the reflection of the moon rise over a lake from high on a distant ridge the following weekend. How is it that am I seeing less than someone that plans for months to take a week from work & family to lug a pack the same 50. And don't give me that quality vs. quantity bullshit either.

quote: Originally posted by fleblebleb: You might look at the Wickwire book for the first chapter though, it has some insights into solo glacier travel. It also gives some insight to roped glacier travel. [ 08-02-2002, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

No worries, iain. And, thanks for the beta on the yokum approach. BTW, the Reid glacier was an easy and safe "walk in the park" to cross solo.