klenke

Hey Greg, did your most recent purchase finally come in the mail? Bring her to the next pub club. Show her off a bit.

That's the link of choice, cj100f. Thanks. Marylou, suggest you read. And keep in mind, The Tongass is just one national forest. Some multiplier of that lost revenue can be used if you consider all national forests. Don't know what the multiplier is. Don't need to know.

Another analogy: Two men accost you at a trailhead. One is a FS employee, the other is a logger. The FS employee asks you for five one dollar bills. He says he'll put the money to good use in the very lot you're standing in. You fork over five one dollar bills. The FS guy immediately takes three of those bills and gives them to the logger, keeps one in his hand, and the remaining one he mysteriously buries in the ground. The logger then separates out two of the bills and stuffs them in his pocket. He then walks, with the FS guy, to the local outhouse, whereupon they both simply throw the two bills they're carrying into the toilet. Flushed money, as it were. Then, magically, an informational kiosk pops up at the very spot the other dollar was buried. Impressed with this new service, you forget all about the two dollars flushed and the two dollars stuffed.

But this is the central issue, Marylou. Does it really matter if it is happening in the PNW or elsewhere within the Forest Disservice's boundaries? And, actually, it is happening in the PNW if you want to include the Tongass in this region. Why should Joe Public pay into a program to make things work when instead the FS should redistribute toilet-flushed funds (money losing subsidies to timber companies) from wherever they're happening--be it Appalachia, the Sierra, or the Tongass--into the funds needed to upkeep the trailheads, trails, etc.. This is, of course, the very thing they were doing before the Fee Demo was enacted. Maybe on a smaller scale but it was being done. An analogy, of sorts: Say you come upon a homeless person in the street who asks you for a quarter. At the same time you note he's smoking a cigarette. Okay, so maybe he "bummed" it from someone, perhaps another homeless person. You decide to give him a quarter because you feel for him, that he could put the money to use to better himself, thereby bettering society as a whole. So you give him a quarter then go and sit down at a coffee shop. You watch as the homeless man eventually gets up, goes into a convenience store, and comes out with a fresh pack of cigarettes. He proceeds to open the pack and have a smoke. You've just wasted your quarter for a consumptive act: him buying something he doesn't need. You also did society no service. Why would you give money to a lost cause? And yet, this is a black & white case. In reality (98% of the time), people who give money to homeless people don't know what these people do with the money. It can only be assumed they're spending it on things they don't need. If they cleaned up their act they wouldn't need to bum the money. And so it is with the FS and the Fee Demo Prograb.

Oooops. Double post. Ignore it, you fools.

The Jerk is one of my favorite movies. Bang. Pop. Ssssssss. "He hates these cans."

Hey Josh: still drunk or hangover? Hey duesch: I've heard the Lyman Glacier on the north side of Chiwawa is no longer much to sneeze at (it used to be an ice climb for the Mounties but was more or less taken off the list due to the shortness of the climbing for such a long approach). Here's a TR on Sergio's site that might be helpful: Chiwawa -- Lyman Glacier.

What's the big deal, Marylou? Hypocrisy and lack of guarantee where my money will go. Let me redirect you to the following diagram I posted in another thread in early August:

Pssst, you meant Chiwawa not Chikamin.

Oh baby baby it's a wild world Duh duh duh duh duh duh duh duh And I'll always remember you as a child girl

I believe the summit of Illabot (5,944 ft) was indeed one of the checkpoints, not this 5,500-ft point you speak of. My reason for believing this is as such: When I got to the summit I came upon an orange and white flag thingy anchored to the ground with a green cable. Attached to the cable was a cylinder with an orange device in it. I didn't inspect the device inside (I thought it was merely a clasp for the cable). The volunteer I met back at my car had a map on which all the local checkpoints were marked. One of these points was marked as the summit of Illabot (5,944 ft). Later, while milling about at the checkpoint at the logging road with Primal Quest volunteers one of them sat next to me and we chatted a bit. I asked if the flag at the summit was theirs and she said yes. I then mentioned the cylinder and there being something in it. The woman said that it is a hole puncher with a secret punch shape that contestants are supposed to use to verify they have reached that checkpoint. Here are some pics of Illabot Peak's main summit (5,944 ft) from Mike Torok's website: The south side of Illabot with West Ridge on the left: A pic of the climbing near the summit, which is just beyond the large rock at top center. The easiest route I found was Class 3/4 and steep with Class 5 lurking everywhere: I don't know which side of the mountain the accident occurred on but given the fact that the next checkpoint was about a half-mile away at the 5,100-ft saddle due south of the peak it may have occurred on the side shown above. Topozone map of the peak.

Okay, since you guys still don't get it... There have been times when I've been driving paved "public" roads in the deserts of the southwest and not seen another soul, let alone another car, for an hour or more. I've also been on roads so straight and flat that you can literally see 20 miles (like the roads that cross through basins in Nevada's Basin & Range province). On a road such as this, you could speed and get away with it. That is such a place where you can reasonably assume there will be nothing to get in your way. And if there is something there you'll see it way ahead of time. No one who dares go 200 mph on a bike would fail to be observant in such events. If a gila monster ambles into your path and you crash, that's your own tough luck, but you didn't kill another person. BTW, 200 mph on a bike? I've never done it so I can't say what kind of control you can have. Can you? Obviously, the Minnesota speeder was able to control his bike.

In hindsight I should have elaborated. I was thinking only if this was done on a lonely stretch of road (like in the middle of the desert) where it could be assumed no innocent bystanders would be in the way. Gun the bike for a short stretch to see what it can handle then drop back down to logical speeds. I certainly don't advocate speeding like that in more densely populated areas. Whether or not you believe someone should have the right to endanger their own life engaging in such an activity is beside the point, really. I engage in a dangerous activity called mountain climbing where I "cheat death" at least once or twice a year. Should I--or anyone--be banned from doing it? No.

One of those "no harm no foul" incidents. The pilot, amazed with what he saw, ought to have left it at that. But catch the biker doing it again and yes, ticket/arrest him.

Who cares already? Who_cares_all_ready? W-h-o c-a-r-e-s a-l-r-e-a-d-y? A tired subject for sure. Let's discuss current issues not things that happened to either Bush (or Kerry for that matter) some 30-odd years ago. A lot can change in 30 years concerning character, ability to lead, not lead, whatever.

Lost could mean dead or debilitated in an obscure location, so "ten fucking days" could easily happen.

I agree that it's mushroom heaven in dem hills right now. They're everywhere and in many different varieties. If I were a mushroom expert I'd have been able to score more than a few meals' worth yesterday. Must be all the late-summer rain.

Ha ha! Matt? Mattp perhaps? Ha ha!

Try here. You can also PM MCash (Martin) for details. He's been up there a few times. I too want to climb that Chimney Rock.

You mean guys like #71 on this page would drive this truck? WARNING: NOT WORKPLACE SAFE!!!

Off White: 7 miles per gallon! 7 miles! Cost: $93K and up. Source

Yeah, I forgot we voted yes for it three times before (would that include the original 1962 vote? The 1962 vote was "NO," so I'm guessing not.) How do you spell yes in Seattle? Like this: n-o.

Here's one that gives me a chuckle: The behemoth SUV Toyota Sequoia. 1. A large metal object named after a woody object. There's no wood in that car or any car for that matter. 2. A machine that pollutes the environment named after an object that is adversely affected by that pollution.

Good point, Beck. Can't we just get ONE thing done in this city?

Actually, Dave, Moore only appears as a guest commentor about four times. He didn't direct or produce the movie.