Fairweather

I'm so confused.... I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. I hate the government telling adults what they can/can't do with their bodies. I like the smell of fresh second hand smoke. I hate the smell of stale smoke in my hair and clothes when I leave the Naches Tavern. I don't believe that 50,000 people die each year from second hand smoke. The health care - taxpayer cost argument is old...and dangerous. Could, and is being used to restrict freedom. Girls who smoke are easier to get into bed. (So I've heard!) People who work in taverns have a right to work in a smoke free environment...so they should find a job in a place where smokers don't traditionally gather. How much $$$ do low income families spend on cigarettes each year? ....While their children eat canned pork and beans? WHY DO SMOKERS THINK THE WHOLE WORLD IS THEIR FUCKING ASH TRAY? It seems clear that tobacco companies manipulated nicotine levels in their cigarettes to addict more people to a potentially lethal product. Those responsible for this should be in prison, or worse. What has happened to all of the tobacco "settlement money"? New cars and perks for state bureaucrats, I suspect. I've seen climbers light up on the summit of Rainier a few times...and I'm truly impressed. But I suspect I'll still be climbing well into my seventies, and I doubt that many smokers will be. Again; their choice. Iwo Jima didn't kill my grandfather; lung cancer did in 1980 at the age of 68. When I was a child I used to ask him why he smoked. His reply was always the same, "I don't smoke...the cigarette does!"

LISTEN TO YOURSELVES! You guys sound like a bunch of the same conspiracy wackos you derided just a few short years ago. ...reminds me of the "FDR knew about the Pearl Harbor attack in advance" conspiracy theory. What utter garbage. Catbird, I expect this from the others here...but you too?

...spoken like a true intellectual leftist. A real academic you are, j_b.

Actually, my thanks for the raw link was sincere, but I know your narrow mind is probably incapable of expressing both praise and contempt for the same person...or understanding how such could be directed at you. Your world view contaminates your view of the individual. As for the mercenary statement, I believe your intent was clear in your first post.

Tele_nut Stay safe. j_b Your description of tele as a "mercenary" was a way out of line...but I'm rarely surprised by your anti-everything/everyone-American tripe. The story/interview was OK. Thankyou for posting the raw link, versus the standard "click here". I refuse to link to an undescribed site from the left.

GOWANS CANNOT VOTE!! HE IS NOT A CITIZEN, THUS, HE MUST SIMPLY RANT AND SHAKE HIS FISTS. MEANWHILE, HE TAKES ADVANTAGE OF THE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES OF THIS COUNTRY WHICH HE CANNOT FIND IN HIS OWN. GregW, I wonder how our political rants would be received in Scotland. You and I in Scatland, non citizens, on a Scotish climbing web site, bragging about how fast we could hike up Ben Nevis (with our track scholarships in hand) and how shitty the current Scot govenment leaders were. Or how great Tony Blair was. Do you suppose some of the other scotish citizens/climbers on the board would consider us rude? Arrogant? Would they question our qualifications or motives as non voting guests in their country?? We've been down this road before. JGowans....bite me. Then STFU! Or better yet, keep preaching to the choir here. You're really making a difference!

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/olympic/news/index.htm My faith in the folks at ONP and ONF is restored. Good faith efforts to maintain traditional access have been ongoing (East Fork Quinalt, High Bridge repairs, and now Dosewallips), with individual public comments being given even handed consideration, not just special interest groups being "invited" to enter the public record. (ie: Mt Baker Snoqualmie NF, Middle Fork Snoqualmie debacle.) A big thanks to the folks at Olympic National Forest and Olympic NP! Pro access minded hikers and climbers should express their appreciation via letter or email IMO. I will certainly be doing so. Yahoooo!

j_b For once we may actually agree. Exxon was, and apparently still is the epitome of the 'evil corporation'. To this day, I refuse to put their gas in my vehicle. They need to pay up, and finish cleaning up their mess. A seperate question, but I'm just curious where the political lines blur ..... High gas prices: Good, or bad?

Hamas is not interested in peace with Israel. The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Hamas has killed not only innocent Israelis, but Palestinians willing to persue peace/compromise with the Israeli state. Hamas has sabotaged every attempt at a workable peace. They don't want 'just' the West Bank and Gaza, they want the whole of what is now Israel. How do you make peace with a group that wants you to just dieand is IN NO WAY interested in compromise? Answer...you don't. Sharon acted properly, and continues to do what he must to protect his citizens. If that upsets western europe, or the american left, too bad. BTW, let's not forget how/why Israel came to occupy the west bank (and Golan Heights). They were attacked by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria as I recall.

One of the more popular claims of the western left prior to the Iraq war was that 'five thousand children per month' were dying under UN sanctions. (Even while Saddam was building palaces, and UN and French government officials were skimming huge sums of money from the oil-for-food program!) It has now been 12 months since we removed Saddam from power, so is it fair to assume that we have saved 60,000 Iraqi children to date, and untold more into the future? Shall we subtract these salvaged lives from those we were forced to take while removing the bastards Saddam, Uday, and Kusay, and claim a net gain of lives saved? By the very logic that the anti-american left employs, have we not actually saved lives? I'm not trying to distill Iraqi human lives down to mere statistics, but even when you remove all the humanity from the equation, don't those on the left lose the argument? Flame away you lefty bastards.

No one died when Timmy lied.

Doesn't bother me a bit, junior. Dole was as exciting as a piece of Melba toast...never had a chance. But just for the sake of semantic clearity, Clinton did not receive more than 50% of the popular vote versus HW Bush, hence a 'majority', or I believe, versus Dole. (I'll have to investigate the latter.) Hey, shouldn't you be lounging in New Zealand on daddy's dime right now? How many of those jet-a bottles did you end up tossing into the burn can?

I believe that I did answer your question as thoroughly as possible given the fact that I mostly discount your premise, "what is your major problem with Kosovo...." Regarding Kosovo, you freely admit that you "know very little about that episode in our 'history'", and yet you have attempted to draw comparisons to it with the situation in Iraq. Might I respectfully suggest that you investigate this 'episode' further? As the Balkans versus Iraq go, and Bill Clinton aside, there is much hypocricy to go around, and the UN, EU, and American anti-war liberals have all taken a pretty good slice of it. IMHO, of course.

Nice attempt to sneak away from your original premise Matt, but we should revisit your first post that stated, in effect, 'all is well in Kosovo'. We did not act as 'peacekeepers' in Kosovo. We took the side of ethnic Albanians who were just as dirty as the Serbs vis a vis their 'terrorist-like' tactics and penchant for dishing out brutal violence on innocents, and who had a rather weak claim to the title of 'nation' within the borders of the former Yugoslovia. We, at the behest of the EU and our NATO 'obligations', took sides. In the process we helped eliminate a pretty stinky ex-commie dictator, and I have no major problem with that. Let's face it though; the region is a big pressure cooker that will likely explode again, and who do you suppose the French, Germans and others will ask for help in solving this reemerging disaster? The comparisons that can be drawn regarding Iraq and Kosovo are tenuous at best IMO, but then it was you who originally attempted to make the comparison of a perceived success in Kosovo versus a perceived failure in Iraq. Any comments on the news story? Are you going to now cite degrees of violence and claim that one is worse than the other? At least j_b and Sexual Chocolate show a solid consistency in their arguments.

Murray said As for the EU, those NATO troops in Kosovo are from Germany, France, Britain, and Italy - the EU, in other words - as well as an American contingent. There are also forces from Canada, the Netherlands, and various other countries. If they've been as ineffective as you claim, then the blame falls as much on the American contingent as any other. Perhaps you'd prefer that everyone withdraw and let the massacres resume? After all, the intervention has been less than perfectly effective, so we might as well just give up altogether, right? Or do you have a solution in mind beyond just slagging the various countries that are trying their damnedest to resolve an incredibly complex problem? If so, I'm sure we'd all love to hear it. Tell me Murray....which UN contingent stepped aside in Bosnia and let the Serbians slaughter thousands in the UN declared safe haven of Srebrenica? (Hint: it wasn't the US) And while you're at it, would you please describe for us all how Slobidan has turned his Hague trial into a circus/laughing stock and revealed the farce that would be the international court? Let's talk about how the EU used NATO to cleanse europe of an evil dictator, but stuck their noses in the air when it came time to deal with Saddam. Let's talk about how the EU had no problem bombing Belgrade without UN support... Regardless, my original comments were only presented in response to Mattp's naive statement to the effect that 'all is well in Kosovo'.

OK, ya got me there. I never heard it though...and as you know, I'm a regular listener. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Kosovo is still a mess, the UN is not effective there, The EU is not willing to police their own back yard, and Mattp still has no clue about world affairs.

McCain is a good man, but he is one of "The Keating Five" involved in the savings & loan scandal back in the late 80's/early 90's(?). His political enemies (both Dem and Republican) would rightfully use this to destroy him. He would, however, make a great vice prez for Jeb Bush in '08!

Oh really Mattp and ilk? This is from yesterday...but we won't hear about it on your NPR 22 killed as ethnic violence flares in Kosovo JEFFREY FLEISHMAN AND ZORAN CIRJAKOVIC; Los Angeles Times BELGRADE, Serbia and Montenegro - NATO sent more troops to Kosovo as violence flared Thursday for a second day and the United Nations struggled with the reality that five years of international intervention and billions of dollars in aid have not calmed the hatred between Serbs and ethnic Albanians. As 940 additional NATO soldiers were dispatched, ethnic Albanians in Kosovo set Serbian Orthodox churches ablaze and police rolled out razor wire and fired tear gas. The violence spilled over from Wednesday, when clashes and house-burnings killed at least 22 people and injured 500 in a renewed spasm of ethnic tension in the Balkans. NATO forces evacuated dozens of Serbs as homes smoldered across Kosovo, a Serbian province under U.N. control since the 1999 NATO war to protect ethnic Albanians from persecution. Kosovo's majority 1.9 million ethnic Albanians are demanding independence and are angry over what they view as occupation by NATO forces - a dynamic that led to the attacks against Serb villages and the torching of at least one U.N. vehicle. Early today, U.N. personnel in the Kosovo town of Mitrovica were evacuated after two days of violence, Reuters reported. "The way it escalated took everybody by surprise," said Florian Bieber, a Balkans expert and research associate for the European Center for Minority Issues. "There's a considerable degree of frustration among ethnic Albanians toward the United Nations. The ethnic Albanians see a failure of getting independence. There's a great feeling of being let down." In New York, the U.N. Security Council met in emergency session Thursday at the request of the Serbian government. "The recent events have highlighted the fragility of the structures and relationships in Kosovo," said Secretary-General Kofi Annan to those in attendance. "It shows that despite the progress that has been made since 1999, we have not come far enough." International officials are concerned that tensions may spread throughout Serbia. Rioters in the capital of Belgrade set a 17th-century mosque on fire early Thursday in retaliation for the attacks on Serbs in Kosovo. At the same time, a group marched on the U.S. Embassy, setting a vehicle ablaze and battling riot police. A second mosque was burned in the city of Nis as a mob chanted "death to all" Kosovo Albanians. The unrest comes as Serbs throughout the region are bitter about high unemployment and disillusioned with the West, which they say rarely sympathizes with their problems while unfairly charging their politicians with war crimes. Nationalist Serbian political parties made gains in recent elections, and the violence in Kosovo - where Serbs compose only 10 percent of the population - could spark a revival of the kind of hate that roiled the Balkans throughout the 1990s. Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica - calling on the U.N. Security Council to stop the bloodshed - led a procession of about 4,000 people through Belgrade on Thursday afternoon in an effort to quiet radical voices. Many Serbs say the burning of mosques could incite Islamic extremists such as al-Qaida and prevent the former Yugoslavia from eventually joining the European Union. But Serbs are also loath to relinquish Kosovo, which they consider sacred land where centuries ago their ancestors fought Turkish invaders. "We are not fighting the Muslims. This is not a religious war," said Tomislav Nikolic, deputy leader of the ultra-right Serbian Radical Party, who condemned the mosque fires. He added that Serbs in Kosovo were "not attacked by Muslims but by the worst breed of terrorists." (Published 1:50AM, March 19th, 2004)

CONSPIRACY ALERT!!!! Is it just my imagination or does this new spanish socialist zapatista fella president look just like SHOOTER MCGAVIN from Happy Gilmore?? You decide... ...I now return to self imposed exile...

What was the snowline? Trail beaten out to Flapjack Lakes? Nice trip!

I like your thinking re Westside Road, but I remain skeptical. As far as Ipsut Creek Road, I seriously doubt that the NPS would provide a new trailhead anywhere close to the washout. This would necessesitate building a new parking area very near this low spot in the road. As they have done in the past, I suspect they will simply close the road at the current park boundary, five miles from the existing trailhead. You're right that it is stupid to keep spending money repairing the road, but please understand that two things stand in the way of a permanent solution: 1) Relocation of the road bed by even a few dozen yards would require years of environmental review and public hearings as the current road is in a narrow corridor surrounded by designated wilderness, 2) I may be wrong, but I believe that environmental mitigation is a big cost factor in the ongoing repairs. (I don't think $700,000 per year is an accurate figure regardless. It seems to me that this was the total cost on the last single repair done four or five years ago.) I would also point out that adding new land to the park without the proposed improvements written in stone would constitute wishful thinking on the part of the public. Addition of this new 800 acres into the national park system before construction of a new campground within the revised boundary would likely raise the ire of the environmental crowd. I haven't heard if this new land would be designated wilderness. With the park maintainence backlog supposedly in the millions, I am not sure that spending money on new land aquisition is the right priority at this time.

Here is more info: Representative Dunn's bill and Cantwell's press release. Neither one suggests that 'improved' access to Carbon Glacier is afoot. Dunn's bill mentions guaranteed access to Coplay Lake road which is the left turn-off just before you reach the current park boundary. http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/releases/2004_02_20_rainier.html http://www.house.gov/dunn/leg/108-1/HR265.pdf

Radon, Exactly how does this proposal "make it easier to get to the Carbon Glacier"? Do you consider permanently closing the Ipsut Creek Road to vehicles improved access? (See Tacoma News Tribune story below) While I support the idea of protecting the (already ravaged by clearcuts) Carbon Valley west of the current park boundary, I must take exception to folks like those at The Seattle Times who gift wrap this proposal in enviro-speak bullshit. This proposal says nothing about a permanent solution to the road washouts along Ipsut Creek Road. It does not propose a bypass. It proposes closing the road at or near the current park boundary! This is not improved access. It is access reduction. The (now) 7 mile round trip hike to the suspension bridge will become a 17 mile march. And ten of those miles will be spent hiking along the decommissioned Ipsut Creek Road. Not exactly fun for the whole suburban, day-trippin' family! I'll admit that I do like the idea of a new auto campground and a walk/bike-in only camp at the current Ipsut Creek site, and I would love to see parts of the Clearwater Wilderness included in this proposition, but I really can't tolerate this proposal being sold as "improved access" for hikers/climbers and the public at large. It clearly is not. I would strongly encourage people to wait, gather all the facts, and read the fine print before deciding whether or not to endorse this proposal. Here is the Tacoma News Tribune story: Support for expanding national park grows BETH SILVER; The News Tribune A plan to expand Mount Rainier National Park with 800 acres of old-growth forest and prime habitat for threatened and endangered fish and birds has gained another congressional supporter. Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-Edmonds) will formally join Reps. Jennifer Dunn (R-Bellevue) and Norm Dicks (D-Bremerton) next week when she files Senate legislation that would authorize the addition to the 235,625-acre park. Dunn has long sponsored a House version of the same plan. It passed the House Resources Committee last fall, but never come up for a Senate vote. Now, with the support of Democrats Cantwell and Sen. Patty Murray (D-Shoreline), the proposal could gain ground. Cantwell spokeswoman Charla Neuman said some Republican senators, opposed to national park expansions in general, still stand in the way. And the Bush administration has traditionally favored restoring existing National Park Service facilities over adding new land. "It's definitely an uphill battle, but they look favorably upon environmental efforts that are bipartisan and regional," Neuman said. Cantwell, who has scheduled a news conference today in Seattle to announce sponsorship of the park bill, will pitch the $4 million proposal mostly as a money-saver. A stretch of Carbon River Road frequently washes out where a glacier-fed stream jumps its banks. Replacing the road costs the federal government $700,000 each time it happens, Neuman said. If the land were absorbed by the park, the road would be unnecessary. Instead, park officials would build a drive-in campground downstream and set aside Ipsut Creek Campground for hikers and bicyclists. Some also fear that the pocket of land along the Carbon River, which includes one of the state's only inland rain forests, could be a target for developers looking to build homes. Two private land-owners own about half of the 800 acres, and Plum Creek Timber Co. owns the other half. "It's obvious they are coming this way. If you drive up from the lower areas, you'll find homes on the hill, developments all the way up the edges of Carbonado," said one of the landowners, John Thompson. All three landowners say they are committed to keeping the land from becoming a housing subdivision, and haven't been approached by developers in recent years. But a change in federal law would ensure its protection, said the other individual landowner, Sandy Marsh. "We're not anxious to have a big fire sale to get rid of it, because we love it. This is our family home. We're willing to wait," Marsh said. Her family's 200-plus acres include old-growth forest, portions of the Carbon River and several creeks. It serves as home to 28 species of birds, elk, cougar, bobcats, brown bears and chinook salmon. Conservationists say preserving the land in the park's confines would protect the habitat for threatened and endangered species of salmon, the northern goshawk, the spotted owl and the marbled murrelet. Federal legislation is required to expand the park. Another bill to pay for the land at an estimated $4 million, also is required. The boundary change in the northwest corner of the park would be the biggest since 1931, when 34,000 acres were added to the park's eastern edge.

Many sincere thanks to Jon and Timmy who have provided a great venue that mixes valuable information about climbing in our local mountains with a place called spray, where folks who hold strong opinions about issues not necessarily climbing related can vet and 'exchange' ideas with or without the social boundaries that exist elsewhere. I have certainly taken full advantage of this privilege and have enjoyed it thoroughly. But lately I've noticed a shift toward a more Seattle-style, stodgy type of moderation. It began with the banning of Mike Adamson, who certainly pushed the limits of 'the box'. Later, Dwayner was banned for the crime of stating his anti-bolting ideas 'too loudly'. And now Trask has been banned. Whether or not one thinks Trask had anything useful to contribute is not really relevant IMHO. He was a fucking RIOT! He kept things light. Additionally, I've noticed that Peter Puget's posts have almost disappeared, and JayB's are getting sparse as well. Mountain Goat gave up long ago. HRoark and Cavey are the only like-minded posters who remain. My mostly (but not all!) right-wing views have regularly been the subject of ridicule, anger, and even outright hatred from the mostly left leaning folks here, but this has always been part of the fun, my skin is thick, and my personal positions have only rarely been changed. While I'd love to hang around and spar with you all, I'm gettin' lonely. And truthfully, I'm spending too much valuable time here that I now feel could be used more appropriately toward other endeavors. The writing is on the wall, so I leave cc.com and spray to the stuffy arrogance of Catbirdseat, who's non-political posts I have ironically found facinating, the complete idiocy of JoshK and the like, and the ever more mocking 'moderation' of MattP. May you all find joy in this more and more politically homogenized place. I'll still post trip reports if I feel they'll provide helpful information to folks here, and if anyone is interested in getting together for some slogging with an experienced, moderately well conditioned ex-sprayer, feel free to email me at rybolt@comcast.net. I now return to the real world. See you in the mountains! Brian aka: Fairweather

Great spelunking, I've read. And the POW island marathon is in May. There are no glaciers on the island. I would guess that mountain biking is