Peter_Puget

I have several old ALiens (very old) and have HARDLY ever used them. Now that I am getting back into climbing and reading how great every one seems to think Aliens are are, I searched thru my garage and found them. To my dismay they all seemed worn in the following manner: The cables were about to break and the mesh trigger sleeves were damaged. These units were made before the nylon sleeve was added and the springs were made to fit inside the cams. Since I know I hardly ever used these guys I am wondering if the new ones have the same wear problems. I have some TCUs made by Byrne when he was at Metolius and they are still very usable. So disparity in wear would be a big factor in deciding which cams I'd buy.

I agree well put. And I second your view of the abilities of the "bolters." Knowing one of them, I can say that besides being an excelent climber he is also an genuinely nice guy who has made a great contribution to Cascade climbing.

Nah - chipping is the murder of......

Great discussion. My take is that it is not so much that guidebooks should promote one style over another but rather promote all styles. If TRs where given real status and legitimacy maybe there would be less incentive to bolt. Here are two concrete examples: the oft’ mentioned Dan’s Dreadful - its easily TR’d and kind of a squeeze job anyway. Even if it had never been lead I still think it should not be bolted for those reasons alone. Out at the Fun Forest : A truck load of bolts have been placed on top rope routes that had already been climbed claimed the FA and renamed the routes and the area. It’s all climbing to me sport mountains, trad. “big wall” toproping , bold ,not bold.

Yossarian is right Index is a great area - maybe the best in WA. But...the camping sucks in the imediate area.

The Prince and Donna...hmmmm

REI and Marmot have guidebooks. Its out off hwy 2 halfway between Stevens Pass and Monroe

The Index guide is correct the tunnel was originally used to test tunneling equipment check out this site: Robbinstbm.com. The UW began to use the site after Robbins cleared out. Before the access road to the tunnel was graded the whole area in front of the wall was a swampy mess much of the year.

Cavey - Any PMs I have sent were rejoinders to one sent from your "friend." Since I have access to the complete discourse every time I sign on I would be more than happy to "cut and paste" them to this thread. Tim or Jon have my permission to post the entire discourse as well. I do not think they contin anything inconsistent with what I have advocated here but they will prove to be inconsistent with what you have said. Simply put you have either been lied to or are doing so yourself. Appearently your facts regarding Arron where wrong too. Your comments here exactly prove my point that a debate based on goodwill will be more effective than on based on anger, lies, threats and rants. So you can start now and answer my question as to what routes you've chopped and why. We would all be able to learn from you -after all you have clearly stated your intent to send a message to those reprobate bolters. Just think - you can double or triple the effect of just chopping a single route - DDD - and relive past glories as well. Hey now there is some "sarchasm".

SpecialEd - I would prefer no threats and exagerated statements involving testicle size. I would prefer the chopper telling the bolter if possible why he felt they were bad. Clearly Cave thinks he knows who bolted DDD but Viktor's post suggests he is wrong. Repeated threats and promises just reduce the whole debate to a childish set of rants. Most people tune out. Caveman Quote:"And oh yeah the next time I do O space I will be choppin' any rap bolts, I promise. So all you people out there placing stupid bolts I will be on the prowl to chop them" "I will" does not appear to be seeking consensus with the climbing community. Neither do some of Cavies other comments seem to be searching for a consensus. Do a search on the website for discussion of this issue you will see its been talked about ad nuseum. I even clearly stated I think the route s/b chopped. Yet Cavie clearly suggests otherwise. Is he listening? As I have said before a reasoned discussion based on mutual goodwill will produce the best results. Note that I am not saying that everyone s/b mamby pamby merely that they should aruge clearly and directly in a civil manner.

Special Ed - See my post above for my suggestion. Cave - Actualy in an earlier thread I agreed with chopping the bolts on DDD.

Cave - Quote - "Just don't go to one of my favorite crags and start bolting lines that have been established classics or testpieces and lead by someone with more balls than you." Now calm down when have I ever suggested that I was going to do that or are you just trying to insult my manhood. Jeesh! You're right you are are not PC - just a ranting fool. I am sure who ever bolted it gets the picture by now and has stopped even listening to you. The reason I asked what kind of bolts were used is because if they were for example long life (Petzl) removing them would be more problematic than if they were wedge or five piece. See - I was trying to find a excuse for your laziness in not removing them sooner. Not to be PC but simply removing them and telling the bolter your reasons and perhaps even posting them here would accomplish at least as much as the never ending "I am going go chop those gosh darn bolts" BS.

Specialed - Reread what I wrote. I was never or at least never meant to argue what you think I was arguing. I was simply stating that bolt choppers rarely stand up and take specific responsibilty for their actions. This potential situation with DDD aside Cave has refused to do so as well. What kind of bolts were used on DDD? Seems like it could have been removed easily without a posse or such a large number of declarations of intent.

Specialed - WHo was arguing for bolts?

YIKES - Did I even screw up. Its Caveman not Cap't. Guess the letter C is confusing to me!

Capt'n - Not sure if I even want to stop you. I was just making an observation on the behavior of the majority of those wanting to chop bolts.

Sure it matters. Why have only a very few "choppers" over the years been willing to unabashedly publicly take responsibilty for their specific actions?

Ray: which ones and why?

Here's a question: Has any one here who claims to a bolt chopper ever done so? And if they have are they "Trad" enough to admit it under their real names? Just wondering as all this bolt chopping chatter is a bit tedious.

Holly - I remember the pitches like this: p1 5.8+ (DH route) p2 5.9 Chimney p3 5.10 thin crack to roof then A2 across and turning roof (Short) p4 A2/3 Triple roofs - short better than p3. p5 Next pitch short mostly free.(I took the opportunity to let my partner lead the flare) p6 Flare then bolts then I remember cleaning gear and my partner whining on this pitch. p7 Easy and very short. Lambone if people are climbing GD or TC think about rapping Lovin' Arms

Well I am guessing you could do it to join JG on either the second or third pitch. Years ago (and I do mean years) I did swung over to the second just for practice. So use your best judgement. I think if I was to do it again I would try the third BUT I havent been up there since the eighties.

Lambone, I think the ledge you're thinking of (for a bivi) is "Big Honker" not "Smokeout." It's definately the best bivi location, if thats what you are looking for. The only pendo I have heard on TC is to join JG. Although both TC and JG are clean there is a variation first pitch A3?(I think starting in a thin crack off the ground just to the right if DH's first pitch)that has been climbed if you want to do some nailing.

I went to Fossil last winter and was expecting to hate it but actually enjoyed it. The area around Royal Bobbins Wall(?)has some fun routes. The routes aren't great but I had a great time there and am sure I will trip down there next winter again. The bolted-on holds are a @#$%! disgrace which tend to overshadow the few fun routes there.

Specialed - I have only done one long route on Half-Dome (the Reg NW Face) and must say I regret it! First half of the route follows a broad gully with not so great rock, no exposure. I planned on stopping for lunch at the top of pitch 11? and was so grossed out by the crap (literally) that I just kept on going. The only human orifice (incl both sexes!) that didnt have identifiable discharge left on the ledge was earwax. Unbelievably gross. The next few hundred feet above that point are in a big corner system. (no exposure) The Zig Zags are pretty cool but short too. Sorry to seem so down on the route but there are plenty of better routes in the Valley - I was very dissapointed. Peter By the way I lead all the pitches and the one that stays in my mind as one of the most difficult and fun(despite the low rating) was the 5.9 after the tension traverse.

Actually MAtt I think I'll follow your lead as it seems like the best short term response. Perhaps I am naive but I think that little by little as more climbers talk about it the right behavior will tend to dominate.