W

quote: Originally posted by Alasdair: There was an artical in either Rock and Ice or Climbing a couple of years back on this topic that you should read. I dont recomend doing this unless you have no choice. You don't recommend depriving yourself of sleep... or reading R+I and Climbing? Seriously, though, I should distinguish that the type of climbing I was referring to and that which Wallstein was speaking of are a whole different ballgame. I think the style Wallstein is talking about is absolutely the way to go for the routes he likes and wants to do. The present, and future, of climbing in Patagonia, and safety there, is predicated on SPEED and EFFICIENCY. And once you've paid your big wall apprenticeship in the valley, I can't think of a better way to prepare yourself for Patagonian routes than to single push routes in Yosemite, and equally important, bring your technical climbing ability to its peak. Donini recommends avoiding aid in Patagonia at all costs (unless you're Slovenian ) Additionally, there is, as Wallstein speaks of, a great satisfaction in just going on and on for thousands of feet on rock with just your rack and your friends and no bs. But there's a price to pay- people ask how Potter and O'Neil are climbing so fast- well, for starters, they are incredibly strong free climbers. Second, and in conjunction with the first point, they are comfortable simulclimbing at high grades, and further, running it out BIG TIME. Additionally, hard-aid speed ascents are happening in the astounding times they are partially because those partaking in it are comfortable backcleaning 60 feet or more on A2 to A4, and while not speaking for everyone, elaborate testing of manky fixed pieces doesn't happen much from what I've seen and heard. You won't see this guy doing that, I tell you. There may be something in between that would allow me to move faster than I typically do, but I wouldn't feel safe doing things that way. Just my preference. What's safe for one person isn't necessarily safe for someone else. I just try to keep an open mind and make it a constant process of learning- improvement is then natural, not contrived.

I think one should be cautious about embracing "single push" tactics just for the sake of doing it in this style or that. What I mean is, the single push mentality I think is something that is appropriate only if one has naturally evolved into that style through both their own personal nuances and experiences, and of course depends on the types of routes one is attempting. I don't know your experience or route preferences, so forgive me for making any false assumptions- all I'm saying is, if you aren't already on the cusp of this style, having mastered speed and efficiency while carrying bivi gear, I would be hesitant to recommend that you just set out with no gear on long routes and see what happens. I've spent the past several years having some eye opening experiences, both from my own climbing, and from watching others up close and learning from them what is possible. But it's always been tempered by adapting it to our own strengths and level of comfort. My partner and I have gradually, year by year, been stripping away gear and focusing on minimalism- but it's our own brand of minimalism. Just because Marc Twight stayed awake for 60 hours doesn't mean that is what it takes to do routes efficiently, or safely. I think lightweight, alpine style climbing is what matters, not strictly carrying no gear and not being able to stop until its over. This lightweight style should be suited to your own strengths and preferences based entirely on what you have learned about yourself on other routes. Steve House did many, many routes in Alaska before he did the Czech and the Infinite in his single push style. The route you choose may take 22 hours or 57, but what was written above is true- after 24 hours without sleep, performance heads downhill fast, and one has to really be alert to be safe. No matter what gear you have or speed you go, the ascent should be in control at all times. That is what matters, not whether you do it without sleeping. On one route in Alaska, I made a 48 hour up-and-down ascent of a 4500 foot mixed rock climb- half of which time was spent sleeping. We carried only a sleeping bag and stove, no tent and no bivi. The ascent was fast and light, but we allowed ourselves some time to refuel and sleep, which made the hard climbing go fast and enjoyable- and in control despite marginal weather. So my point is not "don't do single push", but rather, know yourself, and tailor the style to play to your strengths. While it depends on the length and difficulty of the route, I think less emphasis should be placed in approaching any route as a "single push" and more on "lightweight, alpine style"- which may equate to single push if it happens to be the right route for you. In the end, what matters is carrying only what you absolutely need to make it safe, and to allow you to move freely and unencumbered by weight on technical ground. Don't be spellbound by the stopwatch. That part will take care of itself- if you take care of yourself. btw, GU is great. But I always take a little solid food. After about 15-18 hours, GU alone ceases to cut it for me. After that much time, a brew stop is probably in order anyway.

if Jim's sponsored it's by Marlboro and Budweiser. Actually, I know he's sponsored by Kong.

It wasn't specifically about the visitors center. It was a public comment/question forum for commercial use within the park. Basically, there were representatives from RMI, the AAI's, and I presume CAG and MRAG (the latter four being the other guide services). Plus I think GSI, the park visitor services concession, I think was there too. There were not very many general public- maybe 20 at most. But I do think a wide range of views were presented, and after the open forum, people were allowed to write down more comments to be reviewed later. The NPS transcribed all forum comments and questions and this is a very effective tool in being heard by the government. If it gets written down, it carries a surprising amount of weight! It is logged and saved and used to make decisions. Basically the other guide services were naturally in support of a competitive arrangement in allowing several guide service concessions. One climber spoke up about not allowing an increase in numbers of guided user days, and also the issue was raised concerning the creation of "non-commercial use" areas/climbing routes. Also, the future use of shuttles in the park both for climbers and for all general park users was discussed and a number of people spoke up in support of that.

quote: Originally posted by allison: Dru's oven method worked like a charm. It was about 20 mins at 150, sno seal is all soaked in, with just the dirt standing on the surface. Now to finish, garnish with basil and just a touch of lemon. Bon Appetit!

quote: Originally posted by Bug: Dude! Great story. Hope you 're not typing with one finger. If that's not funny, slap me. Er... poke me. Got all ten fingers and toes. I got some very minor frostnip on my fingertips but amazingly that was all. Can't say the same for one of my partners, who lost the ends of two toes, and also got frostbite on two fingers each hand. We had to move during the storm, in 50 mph winds and forty below(an improvement from earlier...), to get into a more sheltered place. Not good, especially when you haven't been able to operate the stove the past 36 hours and are dehydrated as a result.

quote: Originally posted by b-rock: Sort of on topic, where's a good spot on Hood or Raineer to practice, for those learn-it-yer-selfers. Obviously we must wait for spring, but where have y'all found a few crevasses that are easy to walk to and easy to walk into? I might suggest that before anyone who's never prusiked/jumared/set up anchors (don't know if you, b-rock, have or haven't) goes and plays in a crevasse, try setting up deadman anchors and practicing your prusik/jumar technique on a snowbank in any parking lot in the mountains. Paradise is usually perfect. Alpental too. I actually honed my jumaring on the Ravenna Bridge just north of the U-district long ago, that is until the Seattle Police caught us. Not recommended!One of the nice things about snowbanks, and something I do recommend, is to tie together, and have one person leap off the snowbank, having the others hold the fall and set up a drilled rescue. You'll be surprised what it feel like to do it, especially trying to get it done as a group of two. You'll figure out soon that Dru's advice is the best here for groups of two- don't fall in, and second, have jumaring/prusiking dialed in. Rainier's closest crevasses for a one day trip for practice are probably on the Nisqually. There's also a few on the Paradise Glacier just behind McClure, or another option is to practice on those huge dropoffs between Panorama Point and McClure- just beware of the cornices.

quote: Originally posted by willstrickland: Here's a "less known" hardman for ya: Charles Cole. Founder of Five-Ten, he put up Jolly Rodger, and the Real Nose with Steve Grossman and soloed the FAs of Space and False Shield. Those were A5, A4, A4+, and A4 when they went up respectively. Don't forget Queen of Spades on Half Dome- out of 20 pitches, something like 16 or 17 were A4, the last pitch through the visor being A4+. I think that also was solo. Only just got repeated recently I hear.

"Gullible's Travels"?

quote: Originally posted by Rodchester:[QBRopegun, I think W was kidding. Just a little left over ribbing from other posts and aimed at me. Right W?[/QB] Aimed at you yes, but the arrows were tipped with nerf arrowheads.

quote: Originally posted by Ropegun2002: You've got to be kidding me? Go and meet the guy W, first his integrity and grit will blow you away. His accompishments, style, ethics are solid & second to none. So what he's getting a little from Christine, a man's gotta live. I am kidding you, Ropegun. Go look up "sarcasm" in the dictionary. Worse yet, if you want to rehash a forgettable thread, go look up the Boskoff/TNF slide show thread to get the source of my joke. Fowler is someone for whom I have great respect, thank you. Anyone who can onsite solo the DNB (1977) is beyond worthy. Further, his humility is another reason to like him.

Dru- Fowler and Boskoff are dating, last I heard. Seriously. Peter- Mohommed DiCaprio?

I'm not going to Second Bounce, that bastion of overcommercialized America! Fowler must be some kind of sell-out if he's giving a slide show there!

where is the Owl and Thistle? Ray- supposedly the meeting ends at 8:30.

Thanks- so Synchro came back huh? On march 2 the middle section of the ramp pitch was totally missing- a big brown section of rock in it's place. Carlsberg was really good that weekend, so I'm guessing it's fattened up a bit more even. I was mainly concerned about the upper gully not to climb it but so that it isn't open and running and dumping chunks of ice down the route, like it did to us in January. I'll be watching the weather.Thanks.

I and I think many others were thinking of going to this NPS forum tomorrow evening at 6:30, Mountaineer's Clubhouse. So if this Pub thingy is going to be somewhere not far from that I might be interested. But how many more dozen posts and pages will it take until a vague indication of where this thing will be held is agreed upon? And how many posts will have to be cross-referenced to confirm? When it's finally decided, can someone be designated to post: LOCATION, TIME, and then have Jon close the thread so it is read-only or something?

quote: Originally posted by Brian-boulder: W-Thanks for the reply. Sorry about my tone of indifference and me invalidating your comments. I absolutely did not intend to state you were an unaccomplished climber, and anyone who has completed the PO wall (i haven't) is overly qualified to give their opinion on our gear. I agree that feedback from our customers is extremely important. Our cams have been under a constant state of change from the beginning, due to constant feedback from climbers like you. We have been extremely responsive to most comments, but there is a point where we have to believe in our design, put it to market, and defend our decisions for the design that was used. Thanks for the input.PS-Our original 2Cam (red size) was specifically designed after a trip up Salathe and those dissappointing huge pin scars. The 2Cams do work really well in those enlarged pin scars where the normal pro is a bigger piton(sometimes bong!). Brian, Fair enough, and thanks for responding.As I stated, I understand the niche you are trying to fill with your cams, and I do see some potential with them. While belief in your design and putting them to market is one thing, I would still just be very attentive to the idea of "defending" it. It can be difficult to listen to critical review if you are taking a stand. I wasn't trying to go in for the kill. In the long run, if you are developing a revolutionary product, defense of your design has no value, for the product concept should be treated as one of continual evolving with use and user input. As your products are new, and despite some positive feedback, even you must admit they cannot yet be considered "tried and true". I might add, I wasn't looking for validation as a climber or for my accomplishments, I would have felt the same reaction if my review comments were based on experimenting with them while doing my first ever lead climb on After Six in Yosemite. I was trying to illustrate that our use of the gear amounted to far more than noodling around it on some lazy afternoon in a boulder heap, it was on a multi-day big wall climb. The technical difficulty was not the important issue. Everyone's opinion, top to bottom on the skill level scale, has some weight, just remember to keep it in perspective. In fact, the beginner might be of great importance, for they haven't bought a rack yet and are trying to find out what to get first.Thanks, and good luck.

Gilles, with the cold temps this last week and the next few days I was thinking of heading up next weekend. The forecast currently for Friday is +10 and rain. I was last up there 3/2-3/3. I'm guessing it may be fatter than then but not sure- you've been up there the last two weeks. Do you think the ice is thick enough to withstand a warm blast this weekend and still be safe? did CarlBerg 3/2, is it still pretty sealed up in the upper gully? Thanks

Hey Brian, Thanks for your response. We only had the two-cam units on the PO Wall. I haven't seen them, but I'm guessing that the four cam units might have worked better for what we were dealing with up there. If you look on the old thread, I indicated that the shallow, boxed out pin scars of the Shield might have been a great place for using them. Your info gives me a better idea of the best uses-particularly the one for placing gear in the only available handhold/crack and leaving enough room for your fingers. As you indicated, these cams are rather specialized. While my posts and certainly some others may have come off slightly abrasive, I might also point something out to you from the standpoint of marketing and public relations. Nowhere have you indicated that you have "listened" at all to any of the critical review of your gear. Instead you are openly refuting the criticism of your cams by real climbers from the public, offering up a glowing review by Climbing Magazine and citing unnamed "very respected climbers" who love your gear. I don't doubt that some people like them. While expressing my personal displeasure with them I have also maintained that perhaps I didn't use them enough to get the feel for them, or that maybe I'm just uncoordinated and can't figure them out. Nonetheless, your response and attitude towards my field review (and I might add, I think a grade VI El Cap nail-up adequately qualifies as a good test run) are on record to quote you: "Even if you hate them, I don't care". Really? So with Climbing Magazine and some "respected" climbers on your team, the general climbing public's opinion doesn't matter? That's a shitty way to do business, Brian. People like me are how you will make your money, not from sponsored magazine climbers who only get free gear. I'm not saying my criticisms of your gear are either 100% valid or the last word on them. They are just one man's opinion. You've tried to address my concerns on one hand, but then you invalidate all of that as you finish by dismissing me away with all the accolades of more accomplished climbers, a commercial publication, and an attitude of indifference. So if that's the way you really feel, I don't care about you, or your new gear, either, and I'll be sure to tell my many friends, if they ask. Aliens, Camalots, HB offsets and leeper cam hooks currently provide the protection I need, I am enjoying myself and thank you for your concern.

quote: Originally posted by glen: Lots of geologic activity out there, but all of the USGS people are based out of Menlo Park and commute out for their occasional field work. Yep, lots of trees dying due to CO2 emissions (don't ever sleep in a snow cave there!). It looks like I'll be doing some snow camping on saturday night. Any recommendations for "not to be missed" spots for those of you who have lots of winter-time logged there? Anyone know what Rock creek is like this time of year? If you want a good mountaineering story, read Muir's account of his first ascent of Ritter. I haven't done much camping in that area in the winter but I would think the Mammoth Lakes basin up towards Duck Pass would be very pleasant- ski up a few miles from Twin Lakes and camp out in a nice setting. I remember Muir's story well- especially the part where he couldn't climb up or down and almost fell off!have fun up there, I'm envious! [ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: W ] [ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: W ]

quote: Originally posted by Norman Clyde: I was on the board this morning and not on Rainier because the proposed climb of Gib Ledges had to be cancelled due to weather and avalanche concerns. But I did not have to work this weekend, and with all the weekends I've been working lately, most any leisure activity is fun (even running around Green Lake in a snowstorm).I grew up skiing at Mammoth and I think it's my favorite ski mountain anywhere. Dave's Run is where I set my personal record of longest uncontrolled slide down a snow slope. Good thing it gets flatter at the bottom when there's enough snow. I used to look West to the Minarets and Mount Ritter and think, What awesome peaks! Does anyone ever climb them? Will I ever climb them? I haven't climbed them yet, but one of these seasons I'll get down there in the summer. When I was 15 years old I climbed Mammoth in the summer. The Cornice bowl was a big heap of pumice sand, three steps forward and two steps back. I found an old tire halfway up, hauled it to the summit and rolled it down. Norman Clyde (great name)man your stories are great! I also grew up skiing Mammoth and hiking the Sierra. When I was about 14 or so I fell all the way down "Drop Out 2", and I remember watching some gal flapping her gums and not paying attention slide backwards over the cornice on "Scotty's Run" and eggbeater all the way to St. Anton. When I was 13 I had my proudest skiing moments ever skiing Hangmans Hollow and Huevos Grandes. Mammoth has so many great memories for me I can't list them all. I'm kind of sad to see the commercialization move in there but it actually hasn't happened as fast or to the extent I thought it would have by now. But I remember the winter nights my brother and I used to run out of our rental condo in Old Mammoth and run out into the then-Mammoth Meadows (now a golf course, convention center and million dollar condos) in the dark and pretend we were on a big expedition someplace...btw, when I was 16 I circumnavigated the Ritter Range and climbed Banner Peak from Lake Catherine. It's a very aesthetic loop! And uncrowded. The Sierras are just great!

Bc- Actually i got rambling, in part, my post was directed towards the thread creep that was discussing the idea of being self-taught. I do understand where you are at and trying to go with it. It sounds like you have a good vision. Take care and good luck! ps-I highly recommend the Andy Selters book "Glacier Travel and Crevasse Rescue". I learned a lot just by reading that and practicing the systems, and practicing holding falls, on snowbanks at Paradise and near the Alpental ski area. Cheers!

LB- My dad is 67 years old and works as a b/c ranger at Rainier. About 20 years ago he had two arthroscopy's on his knee (the first one was done wrong) and he was told he has basically zero cartilage left between his femur and tibia. bone on bone. During the 80's we did a lot of backpacking trips together and he could manage but his knee always got sore and swelled up. So about five years ago he retired from business and got the Rainier job-and started taking Glucosamine and Chondroitan. Last summer he hiked about 600 miles. He climbed Rainier at age 61, 63 and 65. All this time he has had no problems whatsoever with his knees. He works out seven days a week. Yeah I'm spraying for him...but the point is that he swears that this stuff is the SHIT. It must work, because his knees were trashed in 1981 and they work fine now. Not sure what brand he uses, I'll have to ask him.

Word, Fairweather. I'm working today, and probably tomorrow since there looks to be no warm outside rock climbing anywhere within 800 miles of here. And I have three weeks left before I hit the road for a year of climbing and travel. Until then, I've got to tone down on the Mexican and Italian food and start getting outside!

Beefcider, My two cents:"Self taught" in my view is something of a fallacy. No one is purely self taught in the sense of the word. The use of books is learning from the research and experience of another. If your friends show you ice axe arrest, you learned it from them and not "yourself". Etc. etc. While that is overstating the obvious, my point is that as with anything, one can not improve one's self in isolation. I have never taken a guided course; I was fortunate in that I had several friends who already knew the basics and were patient enough to teach me the skills to get started. Along the way, I was equally fortunate to meet others with similar abilities and ambitions for climbing routes, and with whom I connected personality-wise, and with those partners, together we set out to learn- from having "experiences" and from each other- what works, and more importantly- what does not work. The latter is where I feel too much dependence on guide services will fail the aspiring alpinist. The things they tell you to do and not do are not "wrong", but in some areas, like judgment and style, they are simply the school's particular way of doing things. One is never taught to learn from mistakes, because you don't really get to make one. I do feel that there is nothing negative about taking a series of instructory courses to teach one essential skills. But beyond that- if one aspires one day to be able to climb just with friends and without reliance on a guide service (this is the important point to stress)- repeatedly hiring a guide to make the judgment calls and decisions for you will never allow you to develop your own version of "mountain sense" and intuition that is essential to succeed independently at a high level. Further, people get into the pattern of deferring to an authority in climbing of which they are not even aware- and usually never break out of it. True, many guided clients go on to summit many big mountains and have fun doing it. If they are having fun then go for it, nothing wrong with that. But if you truly wish to have all the skills so as to be able to do climbing trips independently, just be aware of the dependence that tends to get fostered by repeated deferrance to guides and instructors. At some point, if you want it enough you will allow yourself the freedom to make your own decisions, read the weather and the conditions yourself, plot the logistics of the climb yourself- and, most importantly, allow yourself the possibility of making a mistake. I've made more than a few, and every time, I don't dwell on what could have been, I just realize that at the moment I made the mistake I was simply not paying attention to my surroundings and not following instincts. I can tell you that nearly 100% of the times this was the case.Good luck and happy learning! [ 03-16-2002: Message edited by: W ]