freeclimb9

quote: Originally posted by pindude: Dude, for your sake, I would like you to come up with some independent citable source, stating it was proven Chouinard/Black Diamond's Kevlar cord was at fault for these supposed deaths. Hell, I've still got my old Chouinard hexes strung with Kevlar, and I remember the Blue Water tests and BD's change from Kevlar to Gemini cord. "Turned to powder?" Doesn't sound to me like an objective scientific term describing the result of a test, and I don't recall myself that was what happened to the Kevlar. I doubt seriously BD is at fault, even if deaths occured. And if deaths did occur, there must be SOMETHING you can provide as a source of that, although it would not necessarily tell us if BD were "at fault." I would take as a source a copy of an archived AP newstory, or a statement from BD themselves. Just saying: you recalled details "...on who got the chop and where. A fixed line failed. Someone died. Kevlar was blamed."--doesn't cut it. To blame death on a company without supporting evidence is potentially libelous. Be careful when you're slinging words. It's unfortunate many aren't on this type of forum. Grade of F still stands. pindude I don't feel obligated to prove anything to you, pindude. You're skepticism may be warranted, but your manner is crude. For my sake? Don't veil a threat, if that's what that is. FYI, Chouinard never made rope, or cord. They did distribute for Beal. That's probably what's on your hexes. Chouinard Equipment did sell off the kevlar cord back in the day. I don't know what brand cord failed as a fixed line. I never put a brand association with it. But, I challenge you to find anyone who would now reccomend kevlar for a fixed line. Why is that? Hmmmm. Beal's website (http://www.beal-planet.com) states for Aramide (i.e. kevlar) lines that it "must never be used as fixed line." Why is this statement put on their website? Coincidence? Just one more question for you, pindude, why do you think that BD only sells wired (emphasis on WIRED, not threadable) hexes these days? Love that kevlar! Bring on the libel lawsuits, one and all!

Iceicebaby, watch out for BD first runs. Black Diamond --as well as Chouinard Equipment-- IMHO, have often used the first (somtimes even second and third) production runs as their final product testing step. How many products have they done this with? I've lost count, but some notable ones are: Kevlar accessory cord. Once touted as a miracle fixing line. When it was determined that the core fibers would break into dust with repeated cycling (a couple people had to die first), Chouinard put the stuff up at sale prices rather than make a product recall. I'll never forget that move. Carbon Black Prophets. The heads fell off. Not good. Android leashes. They had a couple design flaws. The spontaneous unclipping had a tendency to un-nerve people. Sort of like the head falling off the Carbon Black Prophet. And there's more (check out http://www.bdel.com/bd/news.html for current equipment issues). But once they get a design worked out, it works well. I used to work at a testing lab in Ventura that would routinely check batches of oval carabiners. They broke at fairly consistent forces well above those quoted in specs (but not in consistent locations. If you want to see consistency, DMM sets that standard). I have friends who work at BD, and I trust their workmanship. But I also wait awhile to purchase new designs. And if you want the dope dry-tooling gloves, you got to go with the Vinylove (http://www.seamar.com/atlas/460.html)

rr666,the Technical Friend came out in the mid-eighties. Chouinard Equipment introduced the Camalot in 87, or 88, but didn't hype it much; the company was experiencing many lawsuits, and wasn't advertising much of anything. The employee buyout and renaming to Black Diamond went down at the end of 89. These days in Salt Lake, BD has their mills and lathes running for two shifts a day cranking out cams and screws. It's amazing, really. This thread got me thinking about why folks buy the gear they do. Choosing cams can involve the same impulses that smokers experience in choosing cigarette brands. It's not what's in the cigarette, but rather who smokes them. BD's success has been in part due to their marketing of themselves as climbers working for climbing. They have aligned climbing personalities with their gear more effectively than other companies (Metolius does this well too). I can't think of a single climber working with Wild Country, or Colorado Custom hardware. But BD? Man, there's a bunch.

quote: Originally posted by rr666: (yes friends [sic] have been around longer, but I think they stuck with the rigid friend too long, and lost out on some great opportunity). Wild Country introduced Flexible Friends when BD was known as Chouinard Equipment and didn't make camming devices. BD's double axis design was innovative and their cams were --and continue to be-- wrote about glowingly in the mags, and that's why they sell. Magazine reviews have a profound effect on what retail stores stock and what sales they make. Friends continue to be well made as are cams by other manufacturers, but that doesn't mean they'll be at your local outdoor speciality shop offered up as eye-candy, impulse items underneath the glass counter at the cash register. I've never even seen DMM cams at a store, but the workmanship is impeccable, and the US distribution company --Excalibur-- is one of the most honest and generous operations around.

quote: Originally posted by Country Jake: I was pondering on the use of cams... which would be your choice... Loaded question. If you're rack is doing well with passive pro, and you just want a few supplemental cams, go for BD Camalots since they overlap and cover a broad size range. A tasty selection would be .5, .75, 1, 2, and 3. Add to this a few Metolius TCUs --1, 2 and 3-- and you've got cam sizes from 1/2" to about 4". I like the TCUs over four-cam styles because they don't walk and can fit in shallower cracks. If you're gonna use the rack for aid climbing, the Metolius cams, with their hooped wire design which you can clip your etriers to directly, let you reach a few inches further. If you're just gonna get a couple cams to try, sizes around 1.5 to 3 inches are quit useful, IMO.

Hugh Herr comes to mind as an example of an amputee climber. The critical difference, though, is that he lost both legs BELOW the knee. For an above-the-knee amputee climber, I understand the tougher part of mountaineering to be going down, but there are sophisticated prosthetics being improved to address this. Contact Dr. Hugh Herr directly for an assessment of what is currently technologically possible. His contact information is on his Curriculum Vitae: http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hherr/cv.html I'm sorry for your loss. Godspeed on your rehab.

I played with an adjustable daisy chain setup years ago. It was a device not dissimilar from the Petzl Tibloc, but made of Lexan. Anyways, I found it less efficient. It's a pain to have to adjust lengths so often. Though everyone has different strategies for doing things, and it may work for you. I move faster when I clip a daisy loop only at the length I need to be in the highest step I'll stand in. I know what loop will let me topstep, or be in the second step, etc.; I clip it, then move up. The etrier step heights don't change, nor do the daisy chain lengths for standing at each respective step (albeit, the angle of the cliff face affects the loop choice, too).

quote: Originally posted by brukb: I also have membership in the American Alpine Club (surprised no one has mentioned that yet) which includes some insurance, and sells special insurance for the higher-risk expeditions. It's really a significant benefit. I understand the AAC insurance to be for Rescue and Evacuation. Is the coverage for more than that?I do know the AAC puts a cap on the Search and Rescue amount. On their webpage http://www.americanalpineclub.org/members/insurance.shtml"There is a per accident limit of $10,000.00. If more than one AAC Member is involved in an emergency rescue or evacuation resulting from the same occurrence, the total amount payable will be no more than $10,000.00." I also got an email quote saying basically the same (the cap was some thousands higher with additional cost, but not nearly enough) when I was seeking coverage for a Greenland trip. The Danish Polar Center requires a huge amount of SAR insurance (like $130,000) --the lack of coverage has postponed that trip for the Spring. If I lived in the UK, I could get that coverage with the British Mountaineering Council.

My cooking repetoire is big when I've got a kitchen to work in, but my recipes for add-hot-water-only are limited. Without resorting to freeze-dried pre-packaged meals (which can be great), I've only got a couple: Top Ramen with cheese and salami; Couscous with cheese and pepperoni. I can substitute tuna for the meat to add a little variety (the new foil packages are lighter than the traditional can, too). Oh yea, there's oatmeal. It's a limited menu. Any other ideas? Favorites? How about no-cook meals?

I've intentially bivied a bunch in below freezing temps, and it doesn't take much to do it comfortably. I put my legs and torso in my pack, lay on the pack's removable pad and the rope, and use a hooded down jacket. With my arms inside the jacket, I pull the sleeves inside out and cross them over my chest and belly to bump up the insulation value. Eating before laying down helps to keep warm too. If you want hot food and drink and wood is around, a small metal cup and a twig fire are enough. I've been experimenting with a homemade alcohol stove that weighs in at 1/4 oz. Two tablespoons of alcohol (I use gas line antifreeze available at auto-parts stores) can bring 2 cups of water to a boil at 7,000' elevation though it doesn't do it as fast as an LP-gas, or white gas stove. It wouldn't be my first choice for melting snow as a water source. I used it during a week-long bike-tour in southern Utah this winter, and it worked great to boil water for drinks and make add-hot-water-only meals. It is delicate, so in my pack the stove, stand and fuel are nested into a small pot and packed carefully. I plan on using it for climbing trips in the Tetons and Winds when liquid water is readily available. Trangia makes a more sturdy commercial model. I am really intrigued by the ultra-light-weight backpacker's poncho/lean-to shelter for use in rainy areas. Here's a set of plans to make one http://royrobinson.homestead.com/PonchoPlans.html

With the promise of the route ahead, approaches don't usually seem that bad, or at leas the memories fade compared to the deproachs . . . they seem to often devolve to a death march. I've suffered a couple down the Weasel River valley to the Pangnirtung fiord with absurdly heavy packs (I estimate about 120lbs), hurricane-force winds and not enough food. One of the more ass-kicking was over Liberty Cap and back to the White river trailhead in one go. Long day, that one. The worst deproach was off of Mt. Ruwenzori with dysentary. From 12,000' down I was dizzy from dehydration and had bloodied by feet from stumbling over roots in borrowed tennis shoes (mine were stolen just before we left the main road). I lost about 15 lbs in just a few days.

quote: Originally posted by Bronco: Proffessional [sic] troller anyways. Live Bait trolled at about 2.5 knots is the winning combination. Preferably skipjack (the bait of choice for the Man in the Bluesuit), but YFT at around 20lbs works too. Some can get lucky with artificial lures trolled at 10-12 knots, but the hookup ratio sucks.

I was told by an Insurance Salesman friend a couple months ago that Term Life Insurance is at an historical low. The "Term" refers to a limited time during which you're covered. I've seen the results in action, and if you've got the spare money and people who depend on you, it's worth it. About a decade ago, my cousin got a policy (a BIG policy) for a trip to Aconcagua. His trip went off without a hitch, but he got the chop in a motorcycle accident a few months afterwards. His policy was still in effect. What was a shitty situation for his wife and four children was eased somewhat by the insurance cash inflow that let them stay in their home and let his wife keep focused on the kids rather than on getting work.I could find out more if you're still stuck. [ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: freeclimb9 ]

bummer about the Hepatitis.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: Utah must suck, dude. You have no idea. If it weren't for the outdoor recreation opportunities, there'd be wall to wall fuck all.

My horoscope for today (Leo)"The new Aries Sun burns away the last of your inhibitions. Leo has the strength to turn the tide single-handedly, if necessary. Leadership fills a void instead of just inflating another ego. Others will thank you for this." I'm thinking this full-strength Idaho beer I'm drinking to celebrate Spring is some dope shit. And it's over 40 outside right now. This hasn't happened in weeks. I have to admit that the beer yesterday might have got on top of me. Who cares when you're having fun? Where's the tequila? Damn, the ice is melting fast. But the alpine routes will be getting in shape after mud-month.later

flame on! BTW, Harmston (used to work for Black Diamond) has done testing on single strips of nylon webbing over the cables they use for MicroCamalots. They broke at strengths all over the place (down as low as 1,000lbs but mostly from 1,500 to 2,500), and no standard deviation was given. No testing was done with spectra. Bluewater did similar tests back in the 80's when they started selling sewn spectra. They break (cut, more accurately) at over a ton and a half. I've personally caught a fall of factor 1 (about a 25' fall) where the piece was a #4 metolius TCU slung over the wire with 5mm spectra cord tied with a double fisherman's knot. It distorted the shit out the the wire, but no harm was noticeable on the cord. That's one example. The girth-hitch testing done suggests that their breaking strength is comparable to that of tied webbing. So a section of girth-hitched cord might not break either.There are no tests of webbing girth-hitched over wires that I know of. I think it's possible that they'd break at a higher strength than single webbing since the area of contact between the sling and wire is greater. Speculation. Does this help anyone? Probably not. Obstinate crowd, maybe. Throw some bags of rocks. Get out the funkness device. But don't claim absolutes. And don't assume that I don't know the strength limitations of the gear I use especially when I offer empirical support. Or just stick to the roadside

quote: Originally posted by erik: freeclimb9 recommending a controled substance like any of the 'phine' family is completly irresponsible....those drugs even they are legal are pure shit......they have no benefit to your system and actully work harder to hurt you then do good...... Totally irresponsible. Guess what the boys on the big peaks use to get back from the middle of the ocean? At a slide show in AZ a few years back, Ed Viesturs admitted that they are used. Probably in emergencies. I'm not advocating recreational use. But a pick-me-up in the medical kit is not a bad way to go. There's a reason that stimulants are banned by the IOC; it's because they enhance athletic performance and sharpen mental acuity (at the expense of working over your kidneys). [ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: freeclimb9 ]

I learned some valuable information from a recent lengthy thread on gear and webbing. Many of the posters --a consensus by some people's reckoning-- stated that nylon, or spectra, webbing over a wire rope (i.e. a cable) on a piece of protection would "cut like a hot knife through butter" if it sustained a fall. An "obviously stupid" combination. Couldn't hold a bag of rocks. Although no arguements of the importance of cable diameter (i.e. radius of curvature) in these claims were offered, or mention of the use of sacrificial webbing in sewn-gear designs was made, great anecdotal evidence was given: One case. I think that's a trend. Too bad there's not much empirical evidence, but the blanket statements from anonymous posters convinced me! My own paltry experiences and problem-solving abilities pale in comparison to the brilliant posters who've enlightened me. What an idiot I've been. I'm lucky to have lived so long because my rack has assorted examples of these booby traps. I should've been playing the lottery considering the odds I beat. I've now rethought some of the descriptive terms I'd used for these pieces (eg. stonker and bomber), and now suggest other names:crater fish dance death fersure And don't even think about girth hitching these things, or replacing the sewn sling with a tied sling or accessory cord: it reduces the strength of the webbing, or cord, by up to 30%. And a single sling over the cable is some kind of engineer's stupidity. I did find a quote from a one-time BS engineer, Chris Harmston: "Single loops cut on the wire of the Jr's. These loads range from 1500 to 2500 lbs. With the doubled loop the cable breaks at loads over 3000 lbs (rating is 12 kN = 2698 lbf.). We feel that the use of single loops is not sound advice. They are still strong enough for the vast majority of situations you could encounter. End BD recommendations. The following recommendation is my personal one and is not to be taken as recommendations by Black Diamond. I use single loops. I recognize the limitations of doing this. I know that these can fail at much lower loads. I never use these as the only piece of pro when there is the potential for a high fall factor. I use double loops so that the webbing can be extended. I also cover the wire with a 1/4" thick layer of fiberglass tape and athletic tape to help protect the web from the cable. Using tied slings is fine for many situations. I don't use them if I have a choice."But he's one crazy mo'fo with a death wish. Must be an academic type. Glad he doesn't climb in the PNW cause you guys would have to carry his mangled corpse away from a hideous --and, sadly, preventable-- fall. Girth hitch something, and you could, like, spontaneously combust, or something. And to think I've used the lethal girth hitch even on gear like .Must've been smokin crack (definitely not the BC chronic). Probably, with all the education I've had, my head is so full of facts, there's no room for thinking. Thanks to all for straightening me out. I'm gonna cut all that dangerous webbing off my gear and solely use carabiners to clip 'em.Got any comments, flame throwers? "Cuz the boyz in de hood are alwayz hard You come talkin' that trash we'll pull your card Knowin' nothin' in life but to be legit' Don't quote me boy, cuz I ain't sayin' shit ... --NWA

I've done it a bunch with weekend new-route adventures, alpine climbs, and walls all in the name of fun. I personally need to close my eyes for a couple hours every day to let the static buzz dissipate --Not actually sleep, but simply relax. The bleakest hour is around 3:00AM. On alpine routes, I've learned to keep near my partner during that time of night because some people get batty and will do wierd shit. On a wall that's not a problem since you're tied together, but without the rope they might wander off in some bizarre direction which is a waste of time. For food I've done everything from getting outfitted at 7-eleven on the approach drive, to being ready before we leave town. I like a mix of stuff, but go heavier for savory flavored foods. At low-aerobic levels, your body burns a great deal of fat and some protein too; I like to have some fatty foods along for the ride like cheese and meat. The usefulness of chemical stimulants can't be underestimated. Time-release dexedrine spansules are bitchin, but if you stack them you can wierd-out your electrolytes and get muscle cramps. More illicit flavors of the sweet can be great too, but go easy on the amount and keep the firearms at home. I also found that it took a little time to get used to climbing with near-constant shakes after about 48 hours --like someone with Parkinson's. I got used to it; it didn't actually affect climbing-level too much, but was initially disconcerting.

quote: Originally posted by Retrosaurus: Freeclimb9 is obviously one of those stupid engineers. Maybe he should move to Virginia too. Maybe they are related; cousins or brothers or both. Honestly, the most dangerous shit I've ever seen done on crags and in the mountains was done by engineers. Of course they were also graduates of the Mountaineers Course. Mitch,I've been in this climbing game for twenty years, and have rarely heard, or read, of gear failures. Do have an illustrative example of a webbing failure? I used the specs of the webbing and girth-hitch tests to illustrate the absurdness of some folks hyperbole (Did you know that the water knot reduces the strength of webbing to an amount comparable to a girth hitch? Is this keeping people up at night with angst and worry?). I guess the information didn't take. So who's the "stupid" one? At this point, ignorance isn't an excuse.With regard to education, I've got a Doctorate in Chemical Physics from the University of Arizona. But common sense and a modicum of knowledge of Newtonian mechanics is all that's needed to understande gear strength limitations. But some epistemolgical investigation would dispel doubt also. The AAC keeps records of this type of shit. Become informed.

quote: Originally posted by Retrosaurus: a lemming Mitch,can you contribute constructively, or are you limited to name-calling? You've described me --in combination-- as a stupid, lemming, academic? What does this mean in terms of the rumored dangerousness of a girth-hitch? My memory of visits to the Wenatchee area have been clouded by beer. Have we met? I digress (it must be contagious). Back to the anxiousness revolving around the girth-hitch. Here's a cut section from http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/webbing.html"Looks like girth-hitched spectra runners fail at 14kN or less. That's something to watch out for . . .(FISH Note: 14kn = 3147 lbs. What are we watching out for again?)" That's a good point that hasn't been recognized by many folks posting within this thread: To repeat the Russ Walling quote, "What are we watching out for again?"

quote: Originally posted by fern: Maybe ANAM gives no examples of accident resulting from girth hitching to cable, but taking this thread as an example, most of us know better than to use that method in a life-dependent situation. I am not surprised that there are no reports of death due to a technique that basically no-one practices anyways. fern,the girth-hitch IS used frequently. Just about every nail-up wall will offer a shallow placement where a tie-off will be made. Freeclimbing routes may have convenient trees, or bushes. Many people girth-hitch gear placements. I suggest sewn spectra for the task. If you can find it, the core of 5mm spectra cord can be used for short tie-offs on aid routes to maximize reach for the next placement. That shit is tough: direct hammer blows won't cut it. But it doesn't take a knot very well. A double, or triple fisherman's is a start. I've backed that up with sewing just to be sure it doesn't slip.ciao

quote: Originally posted by Retrosaurus: I knew Freeclimb was an academician. There you go jumping to conclusions again. I'm a professional big game fisherman (last year, anyways).

right on Nelly. I'll continue to use every trick, tack, and crackerjack in this game of climbing.