mattp

Bill: I love you but you post some wacky stuff. Do you really think that your cache of weapons is protecting freedom from government abuse? Even if you are like some of my friends who own a Bushmaster or two, and even if you formed a unified and coordinated group with all like-minded American patriots who would be willing to wage an organized rebellion, do you think you could take "the man" down? Back to Mexico, I don't for a minute doubt that the availability of guns north of the border exacerbates or contributes to the availability of guns south of the border just as drugs seem to flow in the opposite direction. I'm not sure how or whether this should affect our internal politics regarding gun regulation or drugs, though. On both topics, I'd favor pragmatism over idealism. Despite your NRA sponsored statistical charades,I think it is pretty clear that our maintaining no control over weapons contributes to a high level of violence. At the same time, I think it is equally clear that drug prohibition contributes to crime. On both fronts, what would clearly be good for us would probably also benefit Mexico.

I already drive like your grandma, klenke, so I don't think a prius will slow me down much. I'd say, however, that it is those folks on the cell phones who seem to be in my way at stop lights and actually less of them seem to be in a Prius than any number of "hipper" cars.

The Honda Civic (non-hybrid) was my first choice because I saw it as a good, cheap, reliable car. However, both the Prius and the Jetta are more comfortable and I find them easier to get in and out of with a stiff back and neck. While they cost more up front they will save 30% on fuel and, at say 15,000 miles a year, this means about $400.00 a year so eventually the extra initial costs is recovered and meanwhile it is at least as symbolic effort at driving green. Like Porter, I tend to keep a car forever and while the VW's have had reliability issues the consumer reports are saying they have gotten much better. The Diesel engine in that Jetta is supposed to be really good, and the electronics and video screen interface in the Prius may prove entertaining but also useful (as Erden alludes) and not something to worry about (as I tend to fear). I liked the way the Jetta drove better than the Prius, but the Prius actually rode better and was quieter. The Jetta has a real trunk and is more comfortable. The Prius is roomier. Who around here thinks all wheel drive is really important? I see it as a nice feature but, to tell you the truth, I would have bought my Subaru outback with front drive only had it been an option. How hard is it to find Diesel if I'm in some backwater place or in an unfamiliar city? Any thoughts on whether and how long it will be more expensive than regular gas? Anybody actually own one of the new VW TDI's? I know Prius owners love their cars.

Anybody here driving these?

It looks like real wetness - not just a little.

Holy smokes, Choada. You may be on a mission here, but what is it? Marc may be a better or worse choice in partners than any given other who posts to this board but are you really saying that his age is the deciding factor - or even a very significant one on your list of qualifications? I doubt Marc would disagree with the proposition that age and experience are often good attributes, but what is your point?

I think Superior Court judges also get their salary for the rest of their life and my father, a University professor, got his pay and University health benefits until his death. You and I just aren't landing the right jobs, Sobo.

Canadoug, you suggest that we wouldn't need porta-johns at Vantage if camping was not allowed there. I might ultimately agree that camping is a significant part of the issue but I don't agree that restricting the area to day use will solve any problem. I have camped there once but I have poohed there several of the times that I have visited. I'm sorry to disappoint you but it is three hours' drive and I often drink coffee on the way there. I do the right thing and before the Johns were there I would head down the hill and stir dirt into my cathole and all but it was still a mess. There are enough people visiting Frenchman Coulee, generating enough human waste, that some kind of sanitation facilities are needed. I can imagine that barricades (closing camping) may be on the top of the list for Fish and Wildlife planners. For a very cheap initial investment, a closure would eliminate need for enforcement and maintenance expenses and they are facing serious budget cuts just like all of the State agencies are these days. But Vantage is a popular climbing area and I'm not sure any public interest would be served by closing it to camping and forcing climbers to camp at the state park. It may ultimately be the case that as the economy is doing poorly we cannot sustain all the access to public lands that we have previously enjoyed but from where I sit it looks as if the past history of camping at the climbing area at Vantage did not require a large public subsidy. The Gorge concessionaires have kicked in for at least some clean-up expenses and the Access Fund and the Frenchman's Coulee Climbers' Association have contributed to some of the maintenance and the Washington Climbers' Association might be able to pony up some funds as well. I bet we could raise some money to keep a porta-potty going and I bet thsi could help while it might not permanently solve all land management issues there.

That's why some post here: to stir hatred. It can be amusing at times but on a daily basis it gets old.

I'm just making this up, Eldienite, as I have no real knowledge of this point but I can speculate that administering such a thing may post a problem for Fish and Wildlife.

I don't think that is the answer, Catbird. State Parks have long been underfunded and right now they are closing them all across the state. The one climbing area that was purchased specifically as a climbing area and then turned into a state park, Peshastin Pinnacles, has never been open in the prime climbing season there (winter and early Spring before the Leavenworth area crags become where you want to go) and it was closed in the Winter in large part because they didn't have the funding for a ranger in the off season when other parks in the area were also closed. You are right that, in theory, a park would seem to provide the appropriate ownership and management opportunities and, yes, the State Parks can run an OK campground if you like that sort of thing. However, all we want is for the place to be open to climbing within any constraints imposed by raptor issues or whatever, clean toilets, and some kind of arrangement where the management from the Gorge will help mitigate the impact of their customers' use of the place.

This IS an issue that I hope we can fix. Outhouses and porta-potties, however, always draw vandalism and they require ongoing maintenance. Landowners of all shapes and sizes don't like them. I wonder if there is a possibility of cobbling together funding from a variety of sources - and this might include climbers groups, an area-specific fundraiser, and maybe even the Gorge people - and putting aside a trust fund so that Fish and WIldlife doesn't worry they will end up having to pay for it?

On Wednesday next week, I should be able to cut out as early as 3:30. Lets hope it stops raining before July.

Exactly. Fairweather is undoubtedly relaying the message from a source that is spreading misleading information that at best is based on 10% truth and 90% B.S., with the goal being to try to influence public perception.

To the extent that this discussion is about maturity, I think we've seen here that age does not equal maturity. But then again I was one who suggested somebody take rhetorical discussions apart from the original question elsewhere so maybe I shouldn't say such a thing. Bottom line? I'd climb with Collin or Marc just as I would my siser-in-law's kids. Yes, I realize I could be sued but the fact is I'm pretty damn conservative when I take somebody else's kids out climbing and I believe the actual risk is very very low. I might oughtta inquire about the umbella policy, though. Can TomTom suggest that it would really protect against such a disaster as where I planned and led an outing and we were cragging and Collin or Marc knocked their noggin?

Post in the "partners" forum of this board, or show up for what we hope to be some after work climbing outings as the season unfolds. If you state what you are interested in climbing, and respond honestly to inquiries, and then show up when you said you would and ready to climb what you said you wanted to do, you can make partners around here pretty easy.

They are certainly trying to respond to popular (and populist) sentiment here, but the fact is the bonuses are really only symbolic and not a real substantive issue, no? I'm watching this whole thing with a bag of popcorn.

Don't piss off the local teenagers. They'll stick your garden hose into the slot, turn it on, and walk away.

Bill... you're kidding, right? Think of any weapons upgrade, whether it is the B-1 bomber or the latest generation fighters, or the pathetic trucks we sent to Iraq in which our troops had to put sandbags on the floor or weld scrap metal onto. We should trust the pentagon procurement office to make good choices? I agree with part of your premise, and I stated this point the other night in response to one of Serenity's posts: we DO have to have some measure of trust or respect or appreciation and at some level we cannot second-guess everything. At least not on an operational level. But when we are talking about procurement? (Let alone policy) The larger point remains: at the fundamental levels we can and should second guess pretty much everything.

Nice fantasy. You were lucky enough not to get involved in such a tragedy, perhaps, but you're fooling yourself if you asset that nobody you ever climbed with and none of their family members would ever have sought to recover damages from somebody they perceived as being irresponsible in a way that led to their becoming disabled or killed. Lets see somebody try to answer his question rather than stirring the pot with the rhetoric that belongs in one of your political "discussions."

Good luck getting any kind of real answer to that question. We have thousand year old rules of law like assumption of the risk which protect you but you could lose everything you have and end up in jail.

The Red Cross calls Gitmo treatment torture and you guys who talk about how liberals hate America refuse to acknowledge that there is anything even remotely embarrassing about this. Meanwhile, you still have not tried to argue exactly or even vaguely WHY this was a good idea. In this discussion, where Serenity says he set out to "troll" those who are against Gitmo, any defense of what we did there would be welcome. Seriously.

How does that go for you? You must obey, but must she?

In your lap?

Looking at the original post, though, I realize: Thursday is out for me. There are two other events that night - and both involve people who have in the past attended PubClubs. Wednesday or Friday or...have fun and don't drink so much beer you don't want to do it again...