mattp

Caveman is getting ready for the big GROUP HUG at the New Orleans!!!

Fairweather - Indeed, we share a great deal of common ground. That is why we are able to interact here, on this site. But go for the "East Face" and we'll see if you agree. If it doesn't work out, you'll come back cursing my god damned liberal campaign of misinformation, no? (Just kidding.) -Matt

Now Bill is in the act. Time for a GROUP HUG!!!!!

Fairweather: what gives? You and I have been in some measure of agreement (however small) both here and in the "access" thread? Next I'll be expressing approval of your Mount Olympus photo's. Rock on, dude.

Fairweather - You asked Iain. But I will say that I agree: you have a duty as a parent to try to instill proper values. You also have a duty to allow your daughter to grow up. Does she want to go to Evergreen or Berkeley, some other "liberal" institution? I'm sure you realize this, but if you try to prevent her from exploring the world of liberal politics you will only make it that much more attractive to her. I believe that when kids hit age 25 or 30, they generally tend to revert to their parents' world view even if they dallied in some other perspective. I'm not a parent nor am I any kind of expert in parenting, but my guess is that you're better off supporting her at this stage of the game. If you feel that Evergreen (or any other situation she may embrace) is truly dangerous, you have no choice but to intervene in her choices. But if not, let her grow up. -Matt

Iain- I am not all that well-versed in the ARC, though I have read some about them in the anti fee-demo diatribes from Scott Silver and people like him. I bet, however, that the ARC does not speak for all those who enjoy running snowmobiles or dirt bikes. What I am saying is that the people in those other groups are recreational users just like us, and they are dealing with many of the same land-managers. On Mount Baker, for example, the snowmobile lobby was successful in having a pie-shaped slice of the south slope designated as recreation area rather than wilderness, so they are allowed to ride up to the crater rim. As a backcountry skier and a climber, I use the same trailhead and I am willing to share the mountain with them because I know that it is just about the only alpine mountain in the state where they are allowed. I also know that I will not see them if I go on any side of the mountain other than the Easton Glacier (yes, I know that upon occasion they have violated their boundaries and headed over to the Coleman but this is rare). When I periodically read rants in forums like this board, voiced by skiers or climbers who take offense at their being there, that just doesn't match up with my experience: the snowmobilers on Mount Baker who I have met have been knowledgeable and respectful of other users, and I have had no problem with them. More than anything else, I believe that I have a shared desire to see the place kept clean, the parking lot safe, and to see access maintained even if it may prove inconvenient or expensive for the rangers or a problem for their friends, the loggers or miners who seem to have such a huge pull on how the Forests are run. And I am in awe of their organizational abilities for getting that pie-shaped slice of Mount Baker in the first place. How did they do that? Similarly, I know that just about all the roads between Lake Wenatchee and the Entiat River valley have been designated for motorized vehicle recreation. I have no hard feelings about this but, rather, I wonder how it is that they were so successful as to lobby for such wide access to public lands that, for many of us, seem to be reserved for logging company use only. I DO feel that I share a common interest with those folks who drive snowmobiles over there because we all like to get out there in the winter and spend time in the mountains. Again, I hope they maintain the roads, the parking areas, and the policing of the area, and I hope they do not just do what the logging companies or Disney or Coleman or any other commercial lobby wants and leave the area gated to other users who are not specifically funded by Congress or who pay large user fees. I hope the Lake Wenatchee District of the Wenatchee National Forest is able to engage in long-range recreational planning. I believe that Fairweather and Sisu are right, that where we engage in some kind of moralistic rhetoric about these other user groups, we are missing an opportunity. I am afraid that JB, while stating very clearly a fundamental disagreement with motorized users, fails to recognize that there are some issues on which our interests coincide. -Matt

Fairweather: I can understand your "daddy won't pay" policy for Evergreen, because it is clearly a liberal or perhaps radical oriented fantasy land. But I would say that if you have much respect for your daughter, you should have confidence that she would be able to withstand any indoctrination that she might suffer there. I bet that she is already "lost" if she is interested in going to Evergreen, but if she has a proper head on her shoulders she can make up her own mind at age 18 about what she wants to believe in. And I can assure you, Evergreen has consistently been rated very highly over the years, as far as actually getting a good education is concerned. In the interest of fairness, I should disclose that I graduated there in 1981. I and my friends who graduated at the same time are still proud of and excited about what we did as undergraduates. Can many who graduated from the University of Washington in 1981 say the same thing? -Matt

I believe it IS a proven fact that instant oatmeal causes death. See Vol. 29, New England Journal of Medicine, Pp. 543-44 (Gagme and Thenpuke, 1986). But I've been digging the following, lately, and it doesn't have to be heated: powdered milk grapenuts raisins roasted (salted) sunflower seeds Try it -- it is nutty and sweet at the same time, and if you don't wait so long as to let your grape nuts turn to complete slime, it actually almost seems like you are eating something real. The only other alternative that makes any sense is to just stop at a cafe on the way to your climb.

Yeah, but I'll still tell him to sit the hell down! I can imagine that you can "brace yourself" for a pull using your feet -- especially if you are standing on a flat floor where friction is all you have to brace against. That is why they don't fight a tug-of-war sitting down, I suspect. But the realities of belaying your buddy on a mountain climb are not quite the same as a tug-of-war and in the event of a fall you WILL be jerked around, and you will be lucky if you are able to anticipate the fall and the stance you ended up at is such that you can brace yourself in the exact direction of the pull (or perhaps the exact change in directions as your buddy sweeps off the little buttress directly below into some gully off to your side). I could be wrong but I believe it has been, like, 40 or 50 years since the German alpine club recommended a standing hip or shoulder belay.

Perhaps April Fools' day has come a little early.

Might it be for hooking branches? It could be called the Darrington Pick.

Trask- I may agree with you that there are a lot of naive people in this world and you may find your share of them at a peace rally, but the people who most lack critical thought on the war issue these days are those who eat up GW's lies without asking questions and brand anyone who is against the war as a traitor. I don't believe you fall into that category, but way too many people do.

Scott- Call me paranoid, but personally I would consider a back-up that would not depend on the soloist at all -- a truly "redundant" back-up. (Well sort of, because, as we may recall from a prior conversation, ...)

Trask - I'm not suggesting that motorized groups do not care about the environment. I am sure some of their members do and some don't -- kind of like climbers. What I am saying is that I agree with Fairweather to the extent that climbers do sometimes adopt a smug attitude that says we are better than others and prevents us from seeing where our goals may in fact coincide with those of other user groups. Do you disagree with that idea?

Whatever type of ascender or belay device that you use, I would seriously consider using a back-up of some kind. That could either be a second rope that dangles loosely and you tie off to it every twenty feet or something, or you might back yourself up like you do when jugging a line - by tying off to your rope (below the belay device) every once in a while. This will cause the tail end of the self-belay line to be un-weighted, though, which may render your device less self-moving.

On the question of "arrogance" I almost agree with Fairweather. Many climbers seem to feel that what they are doing is somehow more important than what somebody does on a snowmobile or dirt bike or with a fishing rod. It is not just the hype associated with engaging in an "XTREME" sport, but there is a widely shared pride in thinking that we, unlike those other people, are the only one who face nature on nature's terms. In addition, there is an environmental ethic that is not necessarily shared by all climbers but is largely so, and can serve as an additional yardstick by which the hunters, 4x4 drivers, or jet-boaters don't measure up. I don't think climbers are unique in taking a snotty attitude toward other user groups, though.

Do they have a big screen TV so we could start a little early and watch the President?

Right, Dru, but those Apes always belay SITTING DOWN, don't they? I'm with NbyNW on this question. Bill: DON'T BELAY STANDING UP UNLESS YOU WANT TO DIE.

Lammy- In my opinion, the stiffer stems on the TCU's help when you are trying to stuff a piece into a tight crack at the end of your reach. This is a situation where I might be able to place a TCU and be unable to do with an Alien. Otherwise, I agree with your comment and I prefer the Alien's but I DO think they bung up faster.

It is nothing new that fastex buckles and the like will slide if there are not "keeper" buckles behind them. Many packs since the 1970's have had these extra buckles. If you are trying to save weight, buy a pack withoiut the tool tubes and what looks like a beavertail pocket and etc. on it, if not, I'd probably elect to keep those extra buckles. Though that is just me. If you do remove them, one way to help make the fastex slip less is to rub some barge cement into the strap where the buckle attaches. This makes it a little stiffer and harder to adjust with one hand, but it also makes it more secure. You don't have to mess around with the mule knot or whatever.

I never carry a filter and never worry about it except if filling my bottle immediately downstream from an obviously heavily polluted place like a popular camping area. I have never had any trouble except in Asia, where I had the full-on giardia experience and have never been the same since.

NbyNW-The aspect of your poll that I was commenting on was the fact that there were four choices that included sitting well away from the top of the pitch, and the last one that said "it's all good." There was NO choice that that presented the option of taking care while you sit close to the top of the pitch. To me, this suggested a rather black-and-white rule: be prudent and sit away from the top of the pitch; otherwise throw all safety out the window. 'Sorry that I misunderstood you.

Grrrrr.

Gregw: check your mailbox.

If we all look at you sideways because you DELIBERATELY set out to get soaked on a day when you knew you were going to see absolutely nothing, you'll just have to assume we are enjoying your story!!! Have fun.