mattp

I'm sorry to say it RobBob, but I don't think it will happen. Israel is our surrogate asskicker in the region and they more or less serve our interests. They are white people like us, and we have faith that if somebody in Lebanon gets out of hand, Israel will take care of it and we won't have to take direct responsibility. Also, as long as there is instability in the region, we can justify throwing our military might about and in the process we get to tell everybody what to do. A peaceful middle east, where our military is not invited, may in fact be the LAST thing we want. The oil producers could then get their act together and tell us what to do.

I think "Into Thin Air" was the best offerings I have ever read from an author who has been publishing for over 20 years but who in my opinion has generally not been very insightful. It was gripping, and that is why it was such a successful book. Anatoli's book was a very well written defense, but I cannot say whether his story or Krakauer's or anybody else's is correct, and although I didn't try to carefully analyze the "evidence," I would agree in a general way with some of the criticism's offered by Krakauer. I can also say that if you interview any two people from any expedition of that sort, you will find them to tell completely different stories. Yes, John Krakauer cashed in on a phenomenon that many of us disapprove of, but I don't understand exactly why it is that he should be vilified for doing so. Exactly what harm has he done to the sport of mountaineering?

Allright. You can't play anymore ... or else I'm going to have to crop or otherwise distort the photos to make them unrecognizable. It is the East Face of Pidgeon, shot from the Pidgeon Feathers. Does anybody have a mystery photo of something Dru HASN'T climbed?

Damn. You got photographic memory or what, Mr. Berdinka? It was taken from over near Stoat Lake. Here is one more, and then it is SOMEBODY ELSE'S TURN to post a mystery pic. And please, somebody tell me what that shot of Dru's was.

Now try this one:

It is Pancake Flake, shot from the belay right next to the end of the Great Roof. See: I told you it would be easy.

OK, so Dru's mystery photo remains a mystery. Any more guesses? Meanwhile, I have another. Though I'm guessing this one may be pretty easy:

Krakauer?

Correct, Mr. Berdinka. And that's CascadeClimbers' very own DanielPatrickSmith in the foreground. Now where's your mystery photo?

Might Dru's attachment be Matier and Joffre from the North?

Any other guesses? Any other photo's?

I have the guide allmighty's and I would sau much the same thing about them as Fred said about the Mountain Master: they don't hike well or climb particularly well but the rubber is good for slab approaches. I haven't worn them out yet but they don't strike me as being a particularly durable shoe, though I don't think they are any worse than lots of lightweight trail shoes.

Mystery No. 2:

Bling Bling! Is it the Guthrie's?

It might be Bill and Marcy, but it is not Canary. Nor is it Saber.

Winter: Isn't the Blue Ribbon Coalition an industry group? If so, that would be like having a climber's lobbying group led by REI and The North Face -- I am sure they would end up supporting some policies that you and I might not be completely psyched about and that might include user-fees. Anyway, even in your reference to the BRC I see some things I can agree with: if there are going to be fees, the revenue generated should be spent to actually maintain some kind of facility or trail in the local district and the program should be publicly accountable. I'm not 100% sure anybody has said that climbers are more arrogant than all other user groups, though Fairweather said he was ashamed to admit his affiliation with climbing sometimes, but I sure do know a lot of climbers who think they are real cool but hunters or fisherman are real uncool. And lots of those uncool people don't even use 2 stroke engines. I agree with managing public forest lands (or deserts or rivers) to (1) minimize environmental impacts; and (2) protect the integrity of the experience for all user groups. I wouldn't be surprised if there were lots of hunters and fisherman, and maybe even some ORV users out there who would also agree. Matt

Can anyone identify the route? Extra points for identifying the climbers because I have no idea who they are.

Here I go, agreeing with GregW again today! I have no doubt that Microsoft would want to be able to scan your computer to see if you have any of that nasty java on there, or to make sure you aren't running unlicensed copies of their software, or to see if they can install something that will make their competitors' programs crash. And I bet they have the technology to do so. Further, I don't doubt that the gubmint might be tempted to spy on some miscreant after they fire off one too many angry letters to their senator, demanding immediate resignation because said senator voted for a tax increase or something.

The journals of Lewis and Clark are pretty interesting, too. You might not want to read the whole thing, but the Mandan's were pretty cool, their encounters with grizzly bears were exciting, and it is fun to read about how they spent an entire winter complaining about having to eat salmon.

Call me cynical, but I don't doubt that they would do this, nor that they could.

Sisu- I agree that I don't see it as a matter of compromising our desire to enjoy the mountains or crags in some semblance of quiet and clean air so that they can be taken over by snowmobiles and dirt bikes. That is why I pointed out the Mount Baker and Lake Wenatchee areas as examples of where I don not begrudge motorized users their access. However, Jon and J_B may see it as a "zero sum game" so that if we gain, the motorized users lose (or the other way around). Even if there is some truth to that view, I still think we should recognize that these other groups are not all comprised of ignorant fat destroyers of the earth and I think we should seek common ground where it may exist. We don't want fees and I bet most of the individual snowmobile riders, ORV people, fishermen, and etc. do not either. All of us probably want more funding for long term recreational use of the National Forests and we would probably all benefit from having areas managed such that the snowmobiler doesn't have to worry about coming around a corner to suddenly find a couple of cross country skiers in the middle of the road and the cross country skiers don't have to worry about whether they are going to get run over when one is trying to help another with a binding problem. In suggesting that some climbers like to present themselves as superior, and stating that I hear them describing their exploits as "facing nature on nature's terms," I am trying to make it clear that I do not agree with such a portrayal of our sport vs theirs. Is your point about my use of the phrase "on nature's terms" that we have no right to claim we are doing this when we drill holes in the rock or rip grass out of a crack system? If so, you are right, a debate of the environmental ethics of climbing may be a distraction from the topic at hand but there too I bet we could find plenty of common ground though you and I may well disagree on some fundamental issues. In my view, it is not asking to sleep with the devil to show respect for other user groups and to inquire whether there may be some areas where individual recreational user's needs may not be served by business interests or governmental policies. -Matt

J_B- REI's interest (might just as well be N. Face or Lowe or whatever) is in selling product. If you think they are inherently eco-friendly as a corporation, I believe you would be seriously dissapointed to sit in on one of their board meetings. Don't let the fact that they have defined their market group fool you: for the most part, they are simply pandering to people like you and me who think we are environmental warriors when we drive our SUV's to Smith Rock for the weekend, pick up a couple pieces of trash while we are there, and then take a side trip over to Mt. Bachelor only to complain about the snowmobiliers in the snowpark that is probably paid for by their organized lobby. I think you ought to listen to more Zappa.

J_B- Those that ride ORV's or dirt bikes or whatever are individual users who just want to be able to go out to the woods and enjoy their Saturday -- just like you and me. And they have rights, just like you and me. Further, their interests are probably no more in line with Yahama then are yours with The North Face or REI. If you cannot acknowledge that, you MAY BE narrow minded and you are certainly being dogmatic and providing evidence to support the complaints raised by Sisu and Fairweather. Think about it: we are all pawns on the same chessboard even if some are black and others white. -Matt

J_B- I guess I never thought it was a rock star's duty to further the "youth" movement. Yes, Janice and Jimmi espoused support for the right (leftward) view of the world, but I always liked the "Frankness" of the darker side of things. Maybe I'm just a cynicial bastard.

J_B Zappa was THE MAN.