mattp

Another recent poll said over 50% believed the former.

Its not my fault, Muffy, that you can't see the difference between a bunch of environmental activists who go beserk over the cutting of a tree in downtown Eugene and a broad coaliation of churches, various political groups, and even some veterans' organizations.

Mtnrgr- I agree with absolutely everthing you just stated. I don't think it is yet time to go to war, though.

Mtnrgr- I agree with absolutely everthing you just stated. I don't think it is yet time to go to war, though.

You are right, Chocalate, the right wing propaganda machine is very successful and we do seem to forget our history! Most Americans believe that Iraqi's were among the 9/11 hijackers (there were none) and that Saddam had something to do with the 9/11 attacks (I don't even think Bush's people have said that he did). It is amazing that people like Cracked, GregW, Cavey, and Muffy think that peace marches usually turn violent when, as we have seen, nobody here can think if a single incident where this has happened since 1968!!!

That suggests to me that it would be just as easy to park at the bottom and walk. Putting on chains and risking getting stuck, even briefly, isn't worth it to avoid walking for 20 minutes. Of course you might not have known that in advance, but what I'm suggesting is that Eight Mile road is not really very long and I usually find the use of a snowmobile or 4x4 more trouble than it is worth.

So Greg - Have you given up arguing that peace marches usually turn violent? Are you now arguing that for someone to oppose a war that will kill lots of Iraqi's and destroy large parts of the country shows that they obviously don't care about the Iraqi people? Why don't you try an argument that you might actually win?

That's what I thought you were referring to, Muffy. But don't confuse a peace march with an environmental protest or political rally that is attended largely by ardent fanatics. In Seattle, Saturday's peace march will be attended by a wide spectrum of people and I bet, for instance, that most Seattle churches will have part of their congregation represented there. I don't know the "agenda" but I bet Congressional representatives and other dignitaries will be giving speeches. Lots of people will be there with their kids.

Muffy- Did any of these "riots" follow from a peace march or antiwar demonstration?

Muffy, I don't have kids but I have been to a lot of peace demonstrations. Since the Vietnam war era, I don't believe a single person has been arrested, nor has there been any violence, at any of the events I have attended (I didn't go to WTO). If you believe that war is a bad idea, the speeches are usually inspiring and in my experience these events have mostly been very enjoyable. I wouldn't hesitate to bring my kids, if I had any.

So Greg- Let me get this straight: these things are evidence in support of the idea that peace marches usually turn violent? Stick with the topic at hand: this discussion is about Saturday's peace march.

But Greg- You still fail to cite any instances of violence since 1968 except, as Cavey already noted, there was some property damage during WTO. I am sure that there probably have been at least one or two other instances of violence following a protest, but to suggest that violence is commonly associated with peace marches, or even political rallies in general, is flatly untrue. It would be a lot more accurate to say that violence is associated with college football games (probably every year there is a "riot" follwing a game somewhere in the U.S.). Are you involved with GW's propaganda machine?

Greg- I repeat my question: when was the last time that a peace march ended up in some kind of violence? And when was the time before that? (I mean in this country.) It might be fair to say that you are concerned that such an event could turn violent, but I think it is completely inaccurate to say that these things usually end up that way.

Cavey - Those punks who broke windows and stole Nike tennis shoes and north face jackets were just that - punks. I don't think anybody asserts they had a right to do that. I am not defending anything that took place at WTO except the right of what I believe was 30,000 or 40,000 people to demonstrate - and all but at most a couple hundred of them (probably less) were in fact perfectly peaceful. Again - we are talking about one incident in 45 years.

Yo Cavey - You pretty much made my point. When I asked when the last time a peace march turned violent, and when was the time before that, you refer to WTO. That was one incident, and I don't recall any violence associated with any demonstration before that since Kent State. I'm sure there was one - maybe even two or three - but I just don't remember it. Even if there were five violent protests in forty five, that would be miniscule compared to the number of peaceful peace marches. So in my memory there is absolutely no support for the idea that supposedly peaceful protests are prone to becoming violent -- at least not in this country. In both cases, WTO and Kent State, I believe the police or National Guard initiated the violence, and the "violent" protesters committed some property damage but I don't think any protester attacked a police officer or member of the National Guard; if any did, there were very few who did so. Lastly, the WTO march was NOT A PEACE MARCH. It never was said to be. The issues being protested there had little or noting to do with war and peace but, rather, political and environmental issues completely unrelated to any war. Folks who assert that peace marches "often turn violent" are either victims of some kind of propaganda or they simply don't think American citizens should be able to demonstrate in public. <edited slightly> - Matt

Cracked- When was the last time that a peace march in Seattle, or anywhere in the U.S. for that matter, turned violent? And when was the time before that?

True, Colonel, but then he'd be filling the "gallery" with lots of pictures that are only of temporary interest.

Could the problem be that Jared did not use a full address? Jared used: http://images.ofoto.com/ instead of http://www.images.ofoto.com/

Haven't you heard? Fairweather has called off the peace march.

Mountain Woman- Ovals are better for the purposes you mentioned, but in fact you can use other biners for a munter hitch or a carabiner break if you have to. Indeed, I have done so.

Yes, I was just ranting about this one not thirty seconds ago! It is truly amazing how they can spin this stuff and, apparently, the American people will eat it up. I doubt the subtlety of the message that he doesn't like Iraq but he thinks America is the real great Satan is lost on people from anywhere else on the entire planet!

In addition to being perfectly functional for climbing, better for use as carabiner breaks, and arguably better for carbiner-chains in aid climbing, they DO make good beer openers, though, don't they? Any piece of gear that serves more than one purpose is OK in my book. I just don't carry them on my rack very often.

Sexy - I agree that the Europeans who ask that we take more time to pursue disarmament and containment before we invade Iraq are probably more sensible than our President is right now. Hell it seems that even General Schwartzkopf agrees with them, but apparently the administration put a gag on him after he offered his remarks and then confirmed that he stood by them. In addition to not wanting to discuss what we may or may not have accomplished in Afghanistan, most of the war hawks do not want to discuss how it is that Stormin' Norman came to the conclusions that he did, either. By the way, according to the newspapers, Saddam has conceded on various matters related to the ongoing conduct of inspections. Read all about it. Bronco - you may be right, though I have not read any news account that supports what you say about the average Afghani on the street being happy that we pursued a war there last year. Being the cynic that I am, I wonder if the most signficant result of our invasion may have been that the country appears slightly more desireable for the construciton of a big new oil pipeline that was barely mentioned in the press about six weeks ago. Trask- I agree that if we were to suddenly adopt an isolationist posture we would probably see some of our protectorates and perhaps some of our European allies asking for us to come back and help them some more. However, I'd favor seeing our government try to work within the framework of established international law and if we think the U.N. is seeeking to deprive us of the right to be free, as GregW seems to assert, I would rather see us try to nudge it in the right direction rather than trash it altogether.

???

Ptor Spricenieks' rally in the Coast Range was a pretty cool idea. A multi-day traverse accross the ice fields....