mattp

Newstips- I think you asked whether the high frequency of search and rescue incidents is due to poor judgment on the part of the climbers or the families of the climbers involved. I and others posted a response in the other thread: "Getting Lost & Found." Mattp

I agree, Sisu. Snowmobiles DO have their place and the anti-snowmobile attitide of many backcountry skiers can be obnoxious. However, the snowmobiler's that climbers and skiers are complaining about are not working but are playing, so part of your argument doesn't really hold up and it is inescapable that snowmobiles are loud and smelly and their use has a greater impact on our experience in the outdoors than we do on theirs. There are questions of politeness on both sides of the fence but the major issue, I think, is one of balance. I don't ski on logging roads very much, and they are mostly unable to get to the alpine areas in Washington -- indeed I can think of very few places where I want to go skiing or climbing and there is a conflict. Sure, I have to share the first couple miles of a trip into Colchuck Lake with them, but I am more than willing to do that. And yes, I might prefer to ski the south side of Mount Baker without them, but then again I can climb the north side instead and they are not allowed there (though occasionally they do violate the boundaries of their permitted area). In BC, however, the mountains are more snowmobile-friendly and there are not the same restrictions on their use throughout most of the mountain areas. I think AlpineK is right that it is getting harder and harder to get away from them in the Coast Range, and there appears to be no end to this trend in sight.

Good going. Somebody in your party must have been a real snowplow!! Training for Saint Elias?

If I could, I'd go with you, Cavey. Any of you backcountry folks who want to see some real mountains on your skis ought to go with him. It is the promised land up there and well worth the drive.

He DOES have a point, though. Snowmobiles DO suck. In addition to being noisy and smelly and taking people who arguably do not belong there into "our" backcountry, they break down all the time and you have to get a really expensive one if you want to be able to ride them through deep or sticky snow. Don't take one very far into the backcountry unless you have two of them along with you or you are prepared to walk home.

I have a Feathered Friends helios jacket that is about ten years old and I believe it may be roughly equivalent. I very rarely use it because it isn't warm enough and the shell is so fragile. The reason I carry a down coat is generally that I'm planning to hang out in cold weather, and I usually want to be able to just pull it on and go about my business without a thought of being cold. I do not wear it when active, but when I am at a rest stop or at camp, and the helios just isn't quite warm enough for that purpose. Also, I am afraid to sit back against a rock or walk past a bush or do anything else that might rip the shell of the lighter jacket. For my purposes, it is usually worth it to carry a heavier garment that is warmer and tougher.

If your cat is like ours, all you have to do is put her up there and she'll jump down immediately. If that fails, keep a spray bottle nearby and nail her with a little mist.

Fleb-what board have you been hanging out on? Half of all cc.com postings do nothing but stir up animosity for someone's self-amusement so why should it be any different when we are talking about pubclub? The weekly argument is obviously ridiculous and serves no purpose but to allow some folks to think they are asserting their selves. On the smoke issue, though, I'd say the smoke-hating weenies are just as guilty of this as are those that don't want to go to fern bars or insist on a venue in their own neighborhood.

King5News was there and she says she's going to run a new series, tales from pubclub, sunday evenings at 7:00. Those of you who didn't show are not going to be featured in any of the first ten episodes. King5News

Klenke, you speaketh with forked tongue. PubClub is an extremely important matter and you shouldn't even mention changing the venue at this late of an hour. You are only encouraging that shameless Icegirl, at poor Dave Schuldt's expense. Ten demerits. At this point, it has got to be Al's. And for you non-smokers who can't handle it, our apologies. I don't think it is actually all that bad there -- certainly not as bad as it was at Teddy's on that one out of the three times we've been there that a party of smokers sat right next to us -- but what do I know? I smoke cigars (not at a pubclub, of course).

Klenke- I have described this trip on this board before, I think, so a search may yield a more complete description. The Burgdorfer description is, I believe, out of date. Anyway, here goes: 1. Park at the wide spot where the railroad tunnel comes out, east of Stevens Pass, just after the divide highway rejoins a few miles east of the pass. 2. Walk east on the highway a couple hundred yards and head up the logging road departing the S. side of the highway. 3. Follow that loggin road into a clearcut. For Arrowhead, follow it to the top left corner of that clearcut; for Jim HIll, follow it to the top right corner of the clearcut (or make switchbacks directly up to that corner). 4.a. For Jim Hill, follow the logging road rightward from the top right corner of the clearcut, and at the end of the road enter the woods, dropping slightly in a slide area, to cross Henry Creek. 4.b. For Arrowhead, take the logging road up and left from the top left corner of that initial clearcut. Cross a ravine and then head uphill at first good opportunity (you can travel through woods or follow some branching roads) to reach a higher clearcut in a shallow bowl along the creek that created that ravine just mentioned. 5.a. For Jim Hill, climb up brushy slopes on the W side of the creek into the high basin near the top of Jim Hill Mountain. Most parties top out on the ridgecrest NE of the summit. This NE facing bowl often has significant avalanche hazard after a storm cycle. 5.b. For Arrowhead, climb to the top left corner of that clearcut and enter the woods, head left to reach a clearing below a rock outcrop, and climb up and around right side of the rock. 6.b. (Arrowhead) Head up and right again to a second clearing near the crest of the ridge. Climb that clearing (an avalanche path) or stay in woods to the left. 7. Ascend to summit. Arrowhead is the safer of the two trips if there is an avalanche hazard. The upper basin on Jim Hill has a classic, open ski bowl, though it it has been windy you may find better skiing on Arrowhead then on Jim Hill. Enjoy!

Yo Fool- Isn't that the same one they have on sale at all of the WLSCB stores, about one month out of every three? At $17.95? (Lately it has been the Islay, but same deal.)

Kurt- One thing to keep in mind about Grady's: I believe that once upon a time, Dan Larson promised to show up if we met there. So maybe we could put THAT on the burner for next week 'cause the appearance of Dan Larson at PubClub would surely be newsworthy!

Here MR. AT right here:

Not quite.

I believe that would be me. I was the third one down for most of the way. 'twas pretty good snow.

Greg is right about the difference between hardpack and deep snow. The half-broken snow alongside a ski run can also be pretty challenging and require very fore-aft balance/response. Learn to ski off the groomed part of the ski run and even head through the trees in between the runs to learn to be comfortable in the woods (perhaps not at Snoqualmie Pass, though because I think most of those are pretty thick trees).

If you can, the best way to learn any ski technique involves repetition. Try to ski at leat once a week (better twice a week) for several weeks in a row. Get some coaching or even pay for a lesson if you can, but the repetition is at least as important. I taught myself the telemark turn using the old "Cross Country Downhill" book by Steve Barnett that pretty much started the telemark fad.

Mark- Yesterday we were looking at Mount Rainier and speculating that the same thing might have happened there. In these situations where there is a high-pressure cell east of the mountains and air is draining over the range to toward the west, I bet it is pretty common for the high volcano's to be above the disturbance. I bet, too, the aviation weather reports cover this.

Hidden Lakes Peak is worth a visit, for sure. Check these out.

Ehmic- Perhaps they are not yet ready to argue about where to drink???

I took this shot yesterday, near the top of Hidden Lakes Peak. More pictures are here.

I do as suggested above, clipping a biner somewhere above the middle hole, but instead of putting them on my harness I usually clip them to my pack strap.

OK. Who went skiing today, and what can you tell us about the snow?

Sounds to me more like "rock: cold and dripping; snow: let the good times roll." There's tons of new and it fell with lots of wind, sure, but it blew steadily from the west so hazard evaluation will be easier than it might be otherwise. Even for the west slopes of the N. Cascades, the overall hazard is expected to be "considerable above about 5000 feet" Saturday and "moderate below 7000 feet" on Sunday. Mountain climbing would be quite a swim festival, but get on a pair of skis and you might have some fun.