mattp

In the spring, when the snowpack warms up, it starts creeping downhill in steeper areas. This causes the formation of "creep cracks" that sometimes look like miniature crevasses, usually near the top of a slope and below some type of terrain anchor or maybe at the bottom of a gully or something. I don't think this type of crack necessarily indicates the kind of snowpack instability that is likely to cause an avalanche, but they do show that the whole mass is sliding and, depending on where that whole mass is headed - whether it is sliding down into a flat bottomed bowl or over a cliff or whatever, the whole thing could let go and slide big. Might this be what you saw?

This thread is fine, but I repectfully request that you don't screw with me in the route reports section. Dru added a fine post to the Lib Ridge discussion which he concluded with the taunt "maybe a moderator will lose it and delete this post." If you do that sort of thing, at least if you do it today, I will lose it and delete it. That is today's new arbitrary rule. Grow up, Dru.

Right on Mike. I didn't mean to sound as if I was advocating soloing the route, and I know that there are lots of folks out there who will need two tools on it -- so maybe they should consider bringing at least one extra tool in the party in case somebody drops one. I know that's not the fashionable super- alpine-light-and-fast approach but didn't a party get stranded near the top last year or the year before precisely because they had lost a tool or some tools and were afraid to go up or down?

Just to be clear: I'm NOT picking a fight with Caveman but the fact is that I don't think anybody has ever been banned or that a post has ever been erased because someone stated their view on ANY topic around here, unless their view was that they want to kick somebody's ass, or that faggots must die, or that it is funny to talk about raping little kids, or something like that. Consider the bolting arguments, the political discussions, or even the Rainier Speed Record thread -- I don't think any particular viewpoint has been targetted for mind control. Some whiners around here will argue that I or some other moderator exercises too heavy a hand. But the fact is you can post just about whatever you want, as long as you aren't rude about it. Jon is right on when he says he doesn't understand how you guys passed special ed: the rules of civility here are really no different than they are in any social situation -- including your own living room. If you are talking to your climbing buddy about what gear you are going to bring on your next climb of Liberty Crack, you will tell your buddy #2 to shut up if they keep interrupting your discussion to talk about all the dingleberries in your butt crack or if they tell you that you are a dipshit because only dipshits would attempt that route in the first place. If that same buddy #2 then responds by turning up the music to prevent your planning your climb, or if he tells you that you can kiss his god damn ass, you will probably consider him rude and take corrective measures.

I used a 70 cm axe and a 50 cm hammer. As to your question about the retreat if you drop a tool: you might well want to downclimb because the steepest snow or ice pitch is the last one, a short wind-roll to the summit ridge. On the other hand, even that pitch is well less than vertical and you could climb it with a single tool. It is a judgment call you are going to have to make at the time but my point in suggesting that you think about it is that you should consider the possibility of downclimbing the route even if you hope to carry over -- and that I think people get themselves in trouble when they discard the possiblity of retreating once they leave Thumb Rock or once they have passed the Black Pyramid or whatever.

Veggie- My apologies, but what I saw happening there was that the thread was about to be completely abandoned for nothing but spray. I could either ship the entire mess to spray, close the thread, or try to erase a few posts and send a message. I tried to take the pruning sheers to it in an evenhanded manner. Honest I did.

Dru, you are full of horsecock. You are right that there is lots of spray in that thread, but that does not imply, as you suggest, that the entire thing is worthless. And as I already told you, there are lots of readers who find it interesting, even though some have complained about what they see as the unnecessary spray and personal attack. You say that if I had balls I would delete the whole thing -- but would that be a show of balls or would it just a show of complete arbitrariness to the point of absurdity (to erase a discussion that in fact may have been much more important in terms of NW climbing history than 90% of what is current on this bulleting board just because a small handful of posters don't know how to follow the rules). You dismissively ask "what sort of evidence is going to come forth now?" I don't know the answer to that but I can assure you that the discussion there is completely dead if we simply write the thread off as another "Muir on Saturday" and ship it Spray or delete it entirely, or if it degenerates into nothing but another quest for page tops and a contest to see who can post the crudest picture and get away with it. Is there anything more to say on the topic? I don't know. Does anybody else know anything about the matter? Maybe. If there is some measure of moderation to the discussion on this board, there is some chance that we might make a further contribution to the issue here. Lastly, I will admit that I have not been consistent in my attempts to moderate the route reports forums. One reason is that I simply don't have time to read every post and weigh it against the rules and then, if a post seems out of line, to figure out how to cleanly remove it and still leave other posts making sense. I know its sad, but the fact is that I have other things to do in my life besides babysit this board. Another reason I may not be consistent is because the rules are not clear: with regard to deviations from the topic in the route reports forum, for example, I explained that it is generally agreed that a couple of posts off-topic are OK, but when it grows to most of a page that is merely spray, it doesn't belong; or with regard to personal insults, we have stated that threats will not be tolerated and gratuitous insults do not belong in the route reports section but there is no clear line between what is a gratuitous insult and a complaint about someone's personality flaw. You and some of the other posters on this site find it amusing to play games with these issues, testing the moderators to see just how much you can get away with. And you know what? It gets annoying. So yes, if you keep playing games with me, I will very likely get arbitrary on you and delete posts that aren't really all that offensive. Yesterday, I sent you at least three private messages asking you to stop with the pissing match. And you kept at it, eventually enlisting your avatars because (presumably) you though I wouldn't know it was you. Maybe you don't have any respect for the "speed record" thread or those who have participated in it. But some folks around here do.

Grow up, Drew. We have probably received more requests to moderate that thread than any other in the HX of CC.Com, save perhaps the Goran Kropp thread. You and your friends who think it is cool to piss on every topic in this board are not the only people in this world.

I agree, Nathan, that Liberty Ridge is a serious route that should not be undertaken by a weak or inexperienced party, but this section of the board is dedicated to the discussion of specific routes. Yes, he could look at a topo map and a guidebook and calculate the mileages involved, but his questions thus far don't appear to me to merit a critical response. As to the relative distances: For me, Liberty Cap is the "climber's summit" because most of technical routes on the mountain end there, or nearby. And the top of the Liberty Ridge route is Liberty Cap. So if you consider (as I did on that occasion) a climb to Liberty Cap as a complete ascent of the Liberty Ridge, it is probaby just as far and more work to descend via the D.C. route (assuming you had good conditions on the Liberty Ridge like I did). As to the "difficulty:" Sexy, you said you are a "relative newby" so Nathan's warning may be warranted. The route is not known for steep ice or rock climbing but you may have to climb into and back out of a crevasse somewhere on the Carbon Glacier, there could be some ice climbing with poor protection in an exposed setting, and you may encounter a rotten rock band -- difficulties that have stumped rock and ice climbers of considerable experience. Also, a slip from almost anywhere on the entire climb from the Carbon Glacier to Liberty Cap could be fatal; and climbers, rocks and ice blocks all fall down the route on a regular basis. So yes, "conditions" are important, but even when in "good" shape, the route is a serious one.

Pete- You may already know this, but that is one of the better huts to be stuck in, should you find the snow conditions to be unfriendly. Also, there is good tree skiing nearby, so you ought to be able to at least do SOMETHING (though I was once there for a week when it snowed over a foot every day and there was one day where it wasn't even safe to go out to the water hole).

jb- I could be wrong, but I think the flooding associated with rain on snow that you are thinking of may be that which frequently occurs in the fall, when heavy rains fall on unconsolidated and relatively shallow snow that immediately melts away and adds to the runoff, rather than acting to some degree like a sponge, as the snowpack will at this time of year.

'Sorry Cracked. I have a picture taken from below the route, but nothing of much interest. I don't know who my witnesses were, either.

It was mid-july, after a drier than normal June, so that there had been almost no new snow on the Carbon Glacier for six or seven weeks. There were lots of crevasses, of course, but everything was pretty easy to read. I climbed on a weekend, so there were fresh tracks from other parties, and I used a ski pole (sans basket) to probe around the edge of anything that looked questionable. I'm not saying that crossing the Carbon unroped was "safe," but I will say that I had nothing like the scary experiences that you described in your report above.

Dru- Our forecast is specifically stated to be for areas below 7,000 feet, and this mostly means areas at or below treeline, so your correlation might be expected to at least some degree. I have, as Josh indicated, found scary slopes when the hazard was rated only "considerable" or something, but I don't think they under-rate the hazard in the Washington forecast if you look at how the hazard levels are defined. And certainly, I have been skiing up around Pemberton when I thought they may have slightly overrated the hazard - at least as far as the Duffy Lake road peaks were concerned, and this may be due to what you pointed out about how they have one rating for everywhere from Chilcotin to Serratus. Meanwhile, how about this weather, huh? I don't have to check the avvy forecast to know that there must be some HUGE piles of avvy debris in the basin below the north side of Mount Shuksan right now and it would probably be a good area to avoid for the next couple of days.

ChucK. Don't misconstrue me -- I AM NOT UPSET, OK?????? I only indicated that I thought Pope's diversion with his anti-bolting rant was off the track, and that nobody should think they have to keep it to theirself if, in the middle of a snowstorm or in any other situation they feel compelled to use a piton on a "clean" climb. It's all about keeping the discussion real, and as "on track" as possible -- and I believe I suggested that I thought this has INDEED been a thoughtful discussion. I AM NOT PISSED. OK???? grrrrr

Indeed, I soloed it and I did downclimb the route. Everytime I recommend this, I draw copious amounts of argument about how carrying over is the only way to do the route, but I would seriously consider downclimbing it. I believe that, while a traverse of the mountain has its attractions, the reason most parties carry over is because they expect to find it too difficult to descend Liberty Ridge, and I think this probably means they do not belong on the route in the first place. So, Sexy -- think about this when you plan your climb: if you would not be comfortable downclimbing the route, what are you going to do if you drop an ice tool, if the weather turns bad, or if you or your partner suffer altitude sickness? Anyway, it was great to do the climb with a daypack and I made it up and back to Thumb Rock before any other party even made it up the route that day. I was able to approach the route from Ipsut Creek which is certainly easier than hiking all the way around from White River, and the descent was very straight-forward (I even made it home in time to catch a nap before going out to a barbecue that evening). It wasn't effortless, but it WAS cool.

Fleb and Spanker might be read to imply that it is not OK to pound a pin -- except that it is OK to do so if nobody knows about it. I know that is not what they stated, but it is not far from what they implied. Sure, most Index regulars will probably agree that bcollins shouldn't have taken pins on that climb and if he thought he was going to need them because it was cold and wet out, he probably should have opted for a different climb (one that he could climb in the generally accepted manner); but I bet Pope is right that two months from now, nobody will probably even be able to tell where he used the pins. So the biggest harm that could come from this incident, in my view, would be for folks to conclude (once again) that they cannot ever reveal something they are not proud of on cc.com because they will only get shat upon by a bunch of idiots, or that they can't ever discuss clean climbing without being called a hypocrite or worse. If these kinds of discussions are to have any value at all on this board, we have to be able to discuss real-life situations in an honest manner.

It seems to me that May or June is the most common time for parties to get into trouble on the route. During the "late spring" things seem to be falling down a lot, and the weather is generally more unstable at this time of year than later in the season. Also, if you are worried about falling into a crevasse, "late Spring" snowcover can conceal some pretty poor snowbridges. I've only done the climb once, but on that occasion (in mid July), the glacier crossing was perfectly easy and although there was a little extra rubble climbing below Thumb Rock, perhaps, the snow was firm, there was good ice around the Black Pyramid, and the climb was probably overall easier than when Bug climbed it earlier in the season.

Pope- I am surprised that you would advise someone not to discuss ethics on this board! You add a gratuitous dig at bolting, so you obviously think some measure of discussion is appropriate but maybe you have grown tired of back-and-forth discussions? You added a different perspective on this issue (that pounding a pin in a snowstorm may have been acceptable), and I think that the weather conditions certainly make me feel differently about it than I might had it been sunny out but on balance I'd say they probably shouldn't have done the route if they wern't ready to do it with what is generally thought acceptable technique. But the cool thing is that we have seen a couple different viewpoints and, so far, nobody has thought they had to personally attack anyone else. Right or wrong, bcollins and anyone else who reads this have a chance to think about the issue.

See the rules of pubclub. RPC 74.a(3) provides, in pertinent part: "....NO GLOATING...".

minx- All you gotta do is to go to the sports bar accross the parking lot from your office and you can get a head start on pubclub while you wait. Drink non-alcoholic near-beer, of course.

Yo, Natural. Don't sweat it. The answer is "A AND B," not "A OR B." The most obvious gully-- that is the deepest spindrift trough, actually was the one that trended rightward. At the time, we could see that we were indeed taking a "fork" in the sense that we could have continued more straight up, and the parties that followed us a few days later took a more straight up finish because, I think, the way we took looked as if it might lead to a greater cornice problem. Like they say -- "it's all good" (at least as long as you top out and then find your way back down again in one piece).

Actually, you could have topped out to the right. When Dan and I did the climb, we took a right-forking couloir about 300 feet below the summit ridge and it topped out close to that right-most peak. Dru-why don't you go "stir the pot" in Spray.

It has been a long time since I've been up there, but I bet this would still be a good, easy tour: from the Gold Creek snowpark, head up the road on the W side of the Gold Creek valley and it will turn left, then climb up to a knob on a subsidiary of Kendall Ridge. This is all clearcut, but here you get to an overlook viewing the pass and the ski areas. Then head up hill and left and you'll end up on a frozen lake in the woods, and I believe it is a reasonably easy climb to the second lake but it seems to me that the climb to the third lake may be rather steep. If you don't like clearcuts, you more quickly enter big timber in Commonwealth Basin. Approach through the private ski area accross the street from the Washington Alpine Club (they will yell at you and threaten to call the police for tresspassing) or approach from the back road off the north side of the highway there at the first Snoqualmie Pass exit but this way, you will have a short but somewhat difficult climb up a steep hill with thick second (third?) growth trees. In the basin, there are lots of big trees and a couple of frozen waterfalls.

'Carefull with the blanket statements, Catbird. I for one might be "stupid enough" to go backcountry skiing if I didn't have other activities planned for this weekend. As they say on the avalanche hotline, "there are avalanche-safe areas in all conditions" and I am fully confident that I could go get some turns in a clearcut somewhere, or in the woods, without taking great risks. To suggest that anybody who would go backcountry skiing this weekend is "stupid" is a little extreme. Also, as you learned in kindergarten, "accidents happen." Should somebody go out and get involved in an avalanche, to immediately proclaim that they were "stupid" without information about what actually happened would show only that you are one who might have stayed home when the avalanche hazard is rated high, but not necessarily that you know anything about avalanche conditions or hazard management.