pope

quote: Originally posted by beefcider: quote: What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"? He's gonna make all of the approaches wheelchair accessible AND bolt the ramps every six inches. Listen.....I'm feeling a little weak in the wrists these days.....um, would anybody be offended if I were to.....Gee, I can't believe I'm about to say it....would it be appropriate to cut a couple of big-assed buckets right in the middle of the crux on that new route...(Steven, what did they call that new despo?) Oh, yes, on TECHNO-CRIMP-DADDY-F*#CK-FEST? You see, I think it's so elitest to require an old charmer like myself to be fit enough to climb it in its natural state. We've got great protection on that route now, which certainly makes it safe enough, but to be fair, to make it the kind of route everybody can appreciate it, why not just carve some buckets? People who don't wish to use them can just reach past.....is there something wrong with my suggestion?

Gaper, you have displayed a profundity of wisdom. These days, P.P. is preoccupied with dissembling intelligence and winning wet-T-shirt contests with his climbing partner Sexy Chocolate Bar.

Make time. You owe it to the next generation, my friend.

Then take credit for perpetuating a fine tradition.

Tuesday's Club Pub should be dedicated to Mighty Thor!

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: ....and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. Interested parties can go back and see that about one year ago in the initial bolt arguments and note where I advocated the acknowledgement of the validity of TRs, direct civil contact and then if necessary discrete removal. I even noted that I had recently removed some myself. After a year it is nice to see you come around and jump on the wagon. Too bad we all had to suffer through a year of public invective and your disingenuous claims that you are not trying to incite controversy. (blah blah blah) I have climbed both trad and sport my hardest traditional lead was in fact harder than Pope’s hardest sport lead. PP The validity of a top-rope is hardly an original idea of yours or mine, although if you're short on original thoughts, you're welcome to take credit. Contacting a retro-bolter to establish a dialogue? Oddly enough, I attempted to do this within one week of my first anti-bolt post. I'm pretty sure this happened before you "published" your brilliant ideas one year ago. Christ, this was not going to be another thread in which I argued about bolting, access, etc. Just a question or two, Mr. P.P. Firstly, how can you hope to extend equal access to all climbers? Doesn't climbing limit access to some groups by its very nature? What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"? Also, how does putting bolts into an established TR make it more accessible to anybody? Finally, where do aesthetics fit into your equation? One more thing: where do you get your information about Pope's hardest sport lead? My hardest clip-up was said to be 5.12b/c, this being accomplished without aid or falls on my first attempt. I haven't attempted anything harder, although I "flashed" 5.12d (Equinox, Joshua Tree) on TR (felt about as scary as sport climbing). You know, Peter, you do a damn good job of annoying the hell out of me.

quote: Originally posted by chucK: quote:Originally posted by pope: A solution to the Mountaineers and their meadow-trampling ways: limit the size of the basic class by charging more money. Pope, I am beginning to see a pattern here. You wanna keep people out of the mountains by charging more money, at the Mountaineers class AND by forcing young punks to buy trad gear. Are you pro Fee-demo too, you elitist pig? The Mounties idea was something I thought of when one day I asked myself, "Under what conditions would I rejoin the Purple Helmet Brigade?" I'd be tempted by the Official Mounties Instructor sticker for my Subaru. And yes, the more kids interested in traditional climbing, the greater the chances somebody will be there to buy my rack when my wife finally makes me quit.

quote: Originally posted by trask: "Us Mountaineers, we have no fears, we do not care for riches...we knock our cocks upon the rocks, us hearty sons-a-bitches". Most excellent, Mr. Trask. You should change your handle to Busta Rhymes.

A solution to the Mountaineers and their meadow-trampling ways: limit the size of the basic class by charging more money. Have scholarships for the indigent candidates if you're worried about exclusiveness. Use the tuition revenues to hire and train official Mountaineers instructors (without the quotes, Dwayner). Then only those motivated by the money and the desire to instruct would end up passing on your fine traditions to the sourdoughs (not to mention, they'd get to wear some kind of prestigious Mountaineers Instructor patch or something). Smaller classes, better instructors...sounds like private school! You could make them wear "unies" and offer gender-segregated classes to keep the hormone-induced funny business to a minimum.

quote: Originally posted by beefcider: the question is: how do you keep a restored route from being re-bolted? That's an excellent question, and I've struggled with it in forming my opinions. Ideally, you'd attempt to contact the person who placed the bolts and start a dialogue. You could offer to pay for the hardware damaged and return the hangers. You could even compromise and allow one or two additional bolts, in the event the guy has added a bunch of bolts to an old X-rated death pitch. Let the guy know you're not an asshole. That's a good place to start. Check your PM's for a real example of this approach. If you can't accomplish this, or if he refuses to talk about it, let him know that a number of people are offended, that it's not just some personal thing. Finally, there's no guarantee that bolts won't reappear. Unfortunately, when other avenues have been explored, one might have to conduct restoration and hope for the best. As Retro points out, doing nothing amounts to silent approval, and local history demonstrates that bolting is contagious.

quote: Originally posted by beefcider: We have to keep in mind that most of the land we're talking about is public. If people start ripping out bolts it's going to get noticed by the officials who run the public lands. In Leavenworth this is Chelan County. Trust me, you don't want to deal with them. They will shut the whole area down for an extensive and inconclusive study that restricts climbers from using the land. Same goes for the NPS and the NFS. Three things give climbers an unfavorable image and promote restrictions on our passion: 1. trash 2. trash 3. trash To a climber, a bolt or a sling around a tree might be a beautiful thing, but to hikers and land managers, they are alien and ugly. Crowds of climbers and social trails are alien and ugly. Turds and butt-wipe are alien and ugly. A crowded, popular cliff at which one finds fixed anchors (and other alien trash) is always a candidate for restrictions. A small handful of climbers placing stoppers and Friends who then leave the cliff the way they found it...that is never a problem. When I was about 16, my neighbor had a enormous boulder out in his woods. I went out there and scrubbed a few lines, even invited some friends. The guy was cool about it even though he didn't have to be, even though he was exposing himself to litigation. One day my buddy Dave decided the boulder needed a TR anchor and hand-drilled a 1/4" bolt on top. The owner was outraged and expelled us, and I never returned. That was my first lesson in natural climbing, and I learned it from a man who doesn't climb. It's common sense: bolts are alien and should be avoided. Bolts and the crowds they attract are the entire reason we even need an Access Fund (to quote Dwayner).

I agree with Erik when he suggests that restoration should be performed without making a spectacle. Contrary to the belief of a few of you, this thread wasn't started to stir up a bucket of shit. Fact is, arguing about the issue is getting to be rather dull. Instead, I'm just soliciting some help in the war on bolts. I want to hear from people who are willing to spend a day in an attempt to erase what amounts to only a handful of aberrations from common sense. Send a PM if you wish. Only recently did I become involved in such work. I'm not hiding my involvement...shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to answer detailed questions. I don't wish to discuss particulars in this thread, but I will say that I'm approaching these questions from a compromised stance. While in theory I'd like to see all rap-drilled bolts chopped, I'm certainly not that radical in practice. Instead, I think that restoration is appropriate under the following circumstances: 1. Bolts have been placed to convert an established TR problem into a "lead" route. 2. Retro-bolting of an established lead climb radically changes the nature of the route. (This is not justified since we now have a nearly limitless supply of super safe, thoroughly bolted routes. An old classic that was bolted on lead and subsequently led by many parties should be left in its classic status, although old 1/4" bolts should certainly be replaced.) 3. Bolts have been placed within a body length or so of a naturally protected route. 4. Bolted routes are squeezed in at a "traditional" cliff, such as Castle Rock (Leavenworth). Castle Rock has mostly escaped unrestrained bolting, making it unique among cragging areas. Given that the establishment of one sport route is often interpreted as justification for another, we will make every effort to discourage the spread of sport climbing to Castle Rock and similarly unmolested cliffs.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: The average, adult male gorilla, has a penis that is only two inches long when fully erect. Dru, does this data come from your field observations?

quote: Originally posted by Rafael H: The face route to the right of the Dogleg is a very good, non-trivial 10a and a good lead climb. It’s been there for two years. Removing it is completely unreasonable! As would be any L-worth bolted slab route!!! Last year I asked to list all the bolted cracks and got a measly 15 routes, 90 percent are in Vantage. And “poop” didn’t even respond. Is he just looking for confrontation? Radical anti-bolt actions will not help the problem of (more and more commonplace) overbolting. Rather the problem is (and will be) dismissed along with annoying, and incapable, Poup and Co. A consensus needs to be built, not confrontation. Actually, that route has been top-roped since long before I started climbing 18 years ago. Every climber until only recently respected the choice others had made to leave it as a top-rope, since it's only a practice cliff and since the top has easy, easy access. Given that the route has been climbed on lead without bolts, it should never have been turned into a chicken-shit sport route. Bolt clipping on steep slabs is well-established on the 4th-of-July Wall, and so within a short drive of Dogleg Crack, you can clip all the bolts you wish. There is absolutely no argument for turning that TR next to Dogleg Crack into a sport route. And while we're at it, Smoot's Falcon guide shows a line of bolts leading directly up JY slab to join Armed Forces Crack at the top. He says the route is just left of the crack and calls it Ragweed, but the route just left of the crack used to be called Rock Bottom (it was 5.10R/X...I led the route with Beth Filiman in '92). I'm a little confused. Does anybody know whether the slab just left of Armed Forces has been bolted? If so, it needs to go. It's been top-roped a million times, and it's been led without bolts. Rafael, I'm not looking for a confrontation. I'm looking for a few good men who are willing to say, "Enough already." What I would greatly respect is one climber coming out on this site to say he is thinking of retro-bolting a route and saying he would like some consensus first. That is something we haven't seen yet, and it's part of the reason Pope is finished bitching about bolts.

quote: Originally posted by TimL: Great another topic on bolting. Thanks for adding fuel to the fire Pope. Pope and Mitch - you guys suck. Maybe Retro, Pope and Bill Robbins can get together and have a crow bar 3 way. Retro - Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've sunk several bolts into Leavenworth rock. JY crag ring a bell? Retro - Who the fuck made YOU the moral conscience of Leavenworth climbing? From your spray, its seems like you've done more to take away from Leavenworth climbing then top add to it. I see nothing positive about your statements. I've never been an advocate of bolting natural lines. With all this talk of "restoration" I see a witch hunt attitude being taken that can only be a hindrance. Let's say this restoration forum becomes a reality. Then posts like the one above would probably be ignored, since Mr. TimL has nothing constructive to say about the effort to retard unrestrained retro-bolting. I'm not putting another paragraph into trying to convince anybody that bolting should be a last resort, that climbers should respect boldness and limit the amount of engineering they're willing to leave on a cliff. This new forum would not be a place to debate, bitch and whine. Instead, climbers who are disgusted with unrestrained bolting could simply exchange ideas on how to best REVERSE the damage.

quote: Originally posted by slaphappy: Can't you Mitch and Bill Robbins just exchange phone #'s and leave the rest of the climbing community out of your annoying diatribe? You'd be surpised how many cc.commies own a crowbar. I just purchased a 36" Gorilla bar and I love the feel of that thing in my hands. I sit in my bedroom and play with it (the same way I'll bet some of you played with your first SLCD)! I calculated that you can apply over 10,000 lbs of force with it if you play with the fulcrum point. I've got Mitch's phone number, BTW. He's got a "restoration tool" I'll bet you couldn't even lift, sport boy. )I've got a tool I'll bet you'd like to lift.)

If you spend time bitching about bolts on this site, you only manage to piss people off (as I have learned). I think it's time for a more constructive approach. Jon and Tim, we need a special column dedicated to route resoration. In this forum, we could discuss how to best remove bolts without damaging the rock, what to look for in a good crow bar, how to remove really stubborn half-inch bolts (I assume they're stubborn, but I don't have much experience), which routes need to be erased, how to make a good patch, etc. Climbers could meet other climbers eager to reverse the disgusting trends of the last decade. The beauty of this is that all of the bitching would then be done by the bolt slingers. What do you say?

Years ago, down at the wall by Hec Ed, a young enthusiast approached Brian Sullivan (one of the most bad-assed ski-mountaineers you'll ever meet, and a fine rock climber as well). The young man asked, "Hey, you guys want some Power Bar stickers?" Brian just rolled his eyes and said, "seeesh." Then he walked away. I laughed my ass off. The end.

I ducked into Duck Boys hoping to meet a Leavenwoth local I'd run into while climbing yesterday. He never showed, or maybe I came by too late. Anyway, there I was, "pubing" by myself. I had a pint of their IPA, but not before the barkeep teased me with a sample of Spring Bok. I ordered the Reuben, then a pint of that Bok, and just as began to tune in to baseball talk on the tube, I overheard a man (I assumed to be the owner) explaining to the barkeep that he wanted to hear jazz playing on the stereo. Barkeep: But we really don't get jazz on this thing. We get something called smooth jazz. Have you ordered any catsup? (Adjusts the stereo). Owner: (German accent) Let's hear it. Yes. OK, now crank that up. (Sits back in his chair). Excellent. Now I could really relax to that. I think this is what we want. I think this is what our customers want. There's a case of catsup in back, up on the shelf there. Barkeep: (walking to the kitchen) I disagree. That is what our customers DON'T want to hear. (Returns from kitchen). Couldn't find it, boss. Pope: (thinking) God, this music is putting me to sleep. And what the Hell is smooth jazz? I've been hearing this crap from a dentist's chair for more than 30 years. Owner: (after some time) Ummm, this smooth jazz...maybe there is something else. Barkeep: You mean acid jazz? Pope: (thinking) Now just what the Hell is acid jazz? Owner: I think we need jazz that has something more, more of that... that...(makes a clicking noise with his tongue and cheek, does a little shadow boxing, then winks at the barkeep). Barkeep: This is it, the only jazz we can get through the cable. Owner: Oh. Let me show you that catsup. The owner and barkeep hurried off to the supply room. Pope stumbled out into the cold, thinking, "Jeesh this town is dead on a Tuesday night. I'll bet they're having a blast over at Club Pub." Three snowy hours later, Pope pulled into his driveway. It was Wednesday morning. [ 04-17-2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: pope ]

The discovery of nesting birds of prey resulted in the temporary closure of activity across Dead End Ledge. Routes beginning or terminating on this ledge (from Black Widow over to the Flame) are closed until July 31st. I couldn't tell whether Yellow Bird is impacted by these closures. Contact the Leavenworth Ranger Station (509-548-6977) for more information.

STICKERS ARE FOR MORONS. The guys out where I live all display the little boy peeing on a Chevrolet or Ford logo. A few years ago we saw a number of "Bad Boy Club" stickers, with what resembled a schoolyard bully shadow boxing. And who can forget "Scrotal Lotion" or "Local Motion", or whatever it was. When you put this shit on your car, you may as well add one that says, "Caution: big idiot at the wheel." OUTBACKS ARE FOR GIRLS.

Is your dad a hippie-climber? Is his hair longer than your mom’s? Was he the first to teach you how to sling a hex nut and grow herb? Does he visit your house for weeks at a time and then split when the phone bill arrives? Does he adhere to a strict diet of brown rice and tofu hotdogs, then deplete your supply Twinkies and Ding-Dongs after smoking grass and licking psychedelic postage stamps all evening? Take him to see HAIR at the 5th-Avenue (ends April 21), as an early Fathers’ Day gift. He’ll see and hear a parade of colorful characters dancing a carefree step to 1960’s anthems as HAIR celebrates the “culture” of your father’s youth. Be prepared for strong language (the word “f#ck” is heard more frequently than in Good Fellas), frequent drug references and swinging mammaries and sex organs (my mother-in-law was impressed by the display of sausage....but all of us forgot to check to see if the character Burger is really as hung as he boasts). You may wish first to familiarize yourself with the music as the sound quality and level made it difficult to hear the lyrics. Although the first act is slow to generate dramatic momentum, the conclusion of the second act had nearly every observer dancing and singing, and I left with the impression that I had missed an enormous amount of fun three decades ago.

C-crack is my favorite. Bomb Shelter is pretty good. Sand Box sucks. Pope has spoken. [ 04-15-2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: pope ]

quote: Originally posted by specialed: Pope, I was half-joking about the hippy shit. My old mans got this book called "Yosemite Climber" with a bunch of Bridwell-era dudes with long hair and bellbottoms styling burly shit in the valley. That's the only coffee-table book worth owning! I purchased a copy from Jim Phillips who, if you didn't know, sells books out of his house and can find just about anything you can think of.

I'm a band leader. Not only can I drink a whole lot, but I play 23 different instruments , too and I don't even know how to read music. Self-taught, you know. Couldnt tell it, though, to hear me play. When I play and sway in rhythm to the catchy little tunes that I know girls for five miles around get hot pants for me, hotcha! Last night was pretty good for a Wednesday. We got ten requests for, we got Bill Bailey, and we played them all and we got seven people came up for the twist contest. I gave away a box with two small bottles of champagne imported from Europe (heh) and kissed the girl who won and shook hands with the guy she was with. He didnt mind when I kissed her because I'm important. We have a new routine. Been working on it for three weeks or more. I pretend I'm a queer and the sax player pretends he's a queer, too, and later on in the show, (thisll kill ya) we kiss each other so that it looks to the audience like we kiss each other on the mouth. (heh). When we go... into a fast number, GOD, the people love it! Wait... till... we... get to Las Vegas!