pope

Chirp worked as a ranger one summer at Devil's Tower. I remember him telling me that Todd Skinner had set some kind of speed record, from parking lot to summit via the Durrance crack in a ridiculous 18 minutes. Chirp, does that sound right?

I don't know that this is an entirely analytical discussion. Skinner's ascent of City Park was big news at Index, before he went on to climb the Salathe and Trango Tower (or whatever it was). I was 18 and just getting started with rock climbing. I'd never heard of the guy. One day my friend and I rode a bus to Seattle, connected to Everett, then finally got a connection out to Index. We spent the whole day traveling by bus, with camping gear, ropes, food....enough gear for an expedition all packed onto a city bus. We got to Index and camped the first night on a big rock right below the Narrow Arrow area. While cooking up Top Ramen that night, we got to witness the ascent of a hard 5.13 climb by an enormously talented climber. You can imagine the impression it made on us. The reason I think the details are important here is that I don't recall anybody else being on hand to witness it. It was the end of the day, almost dark, and the only people I remember being there were Todd, a belayer, Smoot and then my buddy and I. I've heard people doubt that he really climbed it, since most people only had the opportunity to see all of the hang dogging and top roping. I can tell you, he climbed from the ground all the way to the belay without weighting the rope or falling. My memory of the style does not agree with Smoot's account. You can read my notes above.

The linked account doesn't exactly agree with the way I remember it. I was out there, camped on a big, flat rock below the LTW, and I watched the ascent. It was impressive, but it wasn't a "red point" ascent as defined in those days. His rope ran through a high piece, so he essentially top-roped up to what appeared to be the crux. He kept climbing when he passed this piece, and eventually made it to that variation on Godzilla. He asked, "How hard is this?" Smoot replied, "It's 10c." Then Todd finished the pitch. I didn't notice him placing a single nut. It appeared to be kind of a half top-rope effort followed by an extreme run-out to finish the pitch via Godzilla. Just for the record, that's the way I saw it. I think it should have been reported as a one-man yo yo ascent. Anyway, it was incredibly impressive and my buddy and I couldn't stop talking about it. I think we put a top-rope on that pitch later that year and couldn't believe that anybody could get up that thing without aid.

Right. Make her sit over the back wheels of your Ford Ranger next time it snows.

Save gas. Make your fat girl friend walk.

The issue with belay loops is that they add another single link to the belay chain, a link that doesn't really need to be there. Fresh off the shelf, they are probably engineered to be more than adequate for belaying and descending. But it's just a piece of webbing, a single piece of webbing. As such, it is subject to abrasion, UV damage, and diminished strength that just comes with age. If sewn from a single piece of webbing (as many are), it is also subject to manufacturing flaws, so even though it is doubled, both loops may contain the same weakness. Certainly Todd Skinner isn't the only one who has continued to use a harness (and belay loop) long after it should be retired. Commercial harnesses are expensive. I've seen many climbers who regularly replace their aging slings continue to use an old, faded harness. If this is you, think twice about it. If you're not ready to replace it, avoid the belay loop and clip your locker around both the leg loops and the belt. Also, use 1" webbing for a chalk-bag strap, secure it with a strong knot (bowline is convenient) and use it to back up your harness. Better yet, for about $5, you can buy enough 2" webbing to make a double-wrap swami which works well with commercial leg loops. Since it's cheap, you can replace it once a year. the locker through waist belt plus leg loops is triaxially loaded and more likely to break. check ANAM. this is not a case of "belay loops are unsafe" but a case of "worn out ratty old gear is unsafe". That's only the case if the leg loop connection sits too low. If it makes a high enough loop, the leg loop connection and harness belt will meet at about the same point and the locker will only be loaded along its long axis. Furthermore, the locker will be in the correct (vertical) plane, perpendicular to the direction most people lock off the rope during a fall. Belay loops put a twist into this.

The issue with belay loops is that they add another single link to the belay chain, a link that doesn't really need to be there. Fresh off the shelf, they are probably engineered to be more than adequate for belaying and descending. But it's just a piece of webbing, a single piece of webbing. As such, it is subject to abrasion, UV damage, and diminished strength that just comes with age. If sewn from a single piece of webbing (as many are), it is also subject to manufacturing flaws, so even though it is doubled, both loops may contain the same weakness. Certainly Todd Skinner isn't the only one who has continued to use a harness (and belay loop) long after it should be retired. Commercial harnesses are expensive. I've seen many climbers who regularly replace their aging slings continue to use an old, faded harness. If this is you, think twice about it. If you're not ready to replace it, avoid the belay loop and clip your locker around both the leg loops and the belt. Also, use 1" webbing for a chalk-bag strap, secure it with a strong knot (bowline is convenient) and use it to back up your harness. Better yet, for about $5, you can buy enough 2" webbing to make a double-wrap swami which works well with commercial leg loops. Since it's cheap, you can replace it once a year.

I'll bet you're correct. Otherwise, where did it come from?

I've never liked belay loops, or for that matter, any single piece of equipment which upon failure could imply disaster. I've always used a home-made harness with 2" webbing combined with commercially manufactured leg loops. I replace the 2" swami every year, and I back it up with a 1" chalk bag strap. That still leaves a single locking 'biner and a single belay device...and a single rope. I suppose you can't eliminate every possible weak link in the chain.

When your kid takes your gun to school and shoots 6 classmates and a teacher and then himself, you'll probably wish you had bought Hello Kitty socks instead of a gun When you finally post something that isn't obviously the product of a brain saturated in ignorance, I'll buy you a drink. You are more capable of climbing 5.13 than my children are capable of behaving the way you describe.

When your home gets invaded, especially if you have kids, you'll probably wish you had traded in your VW bus and water pipe for a six shooter.

Can't say I was always impressed by the style of ascents, but without question he had incredible ability and drive. The many people I've met who had personal encounters with him echo the thought that Todd was especially amiable. In 1985 (or '86), my friend Joel and I rode a bus out to Index and camped for a week. We spent a couple of nights on top of a huge boulder below the LTW and were there to witness Todd's efforts on City Park. We were amazed that anybody could find anything to cling to on that line, but we were equally impressed that such a capable and celebrated climber would take the time to make small talk with us. It seemed to us that climbing attracted a large number of egotistical and insecure characters. Todd provided an example of compassion and humility that we should all strive to emulate.

Too clever for ya?

Listen to Johnny

Down at the UW wall one afternoon, many years ago, a fellow was claiming to be a sponsored climber and wanted to know if my buddies and I would enjoy some free Power Bar stickers. Brian Sullivan, a NW ski-mountaineering bad ass, just started laughing and walked away.

What are you wankers doing in front of a computer on a nice day like this? I have little personal interest in what happens to those bolts. MattP has a pretty good idea..to remove the bolts, but to place a new bolted anchor at the stance 15' above doesn't make too much sense because there is a great horizontal that takes #2 Camalots (and probably other gear too but I can't remember). There is a solid belay there if you have the gear. I always carry 3 gold camalots on that climb (one for the pitch and two for the belay) but that's from previous experience. Hindsight is 20/20. I already told you about my first experience on the route and reflecting on that, I could easily be dead right now. I just read the latest Leavenworth guide and information about that pitch and that belay is of course incredibly vague. My thought is that after a long pitch, serious by 5.8 standards, where the average climber is likely to have a depleted rack, pulling onto that tiny stance and anchoring into twin 1/2" bolts would be quite a relief. The bolts have been there for decades, so upgrading them shouldn't offend too many people. On the other hand, I can also see simply removing them, especially if the next edition of the Leavenworth guide gave specific information about what gear would be ideal at the belay 15' above the stance in question.

Exactly. When we're gone, what species will be intelligent enough to articulate its appreciation for the inherent value of Earth's ecological systems? Anyway, I can't see humans disappearing. I can see our population growing exponentially until we reach about half of the planet's carrying capacity, followed by a diminishing rate of increase, like any other population subject to logistic growth.

Here's a relevant story. Back in the day on my first trip up the mighty Orbit climb, back when ANY 5.8 climb was an adventure, I climbed that pitch and found it REALLY interesting, with entertaining climbing and gear that was just barely adequate for a novice 5.8 climber. I climbed it with a 45m rope (in vogue back then and destined to cycle back into popularity). Anyway, I arrived at those manky 1/4" bolts, with no hangers or nuts, and looped a couple of wired pieces over them. I could tell that additional gear was available at the belay but nothing remaining on my rack happened to fit. And so, I yelled to my partner, "You've got the best damn belay in the state, but don't fall!" He couldn't hear me, of course, and pitched off in that initial cruxy dihedral. As you can imagine, that scared the snot out of me, especially since other than those two looped 1/4" studs for the belay, the only other gear nearby was a dubious cam 20' below. Anyway, with rope drag diminishing the impact, and knowing I could absorb much of the load with my standing-belay stance (according to Freedom of the Hills), we avoided disaster. The next time I climbed the route, with a 50m rope and a modern rack, I belayed 15' above using extremely secure 2-1/2" cam placements in a horizontal crack. I don't have a reputation for advocating bolts, but in this case, I think it may be prudent to replace the bolts with 1/2" equipment. Today's climbers can pass this stance with ease (with 50m and 60m ropes), and the stance I mentioned above offers a great anchor provided the leader has saved enough gear (especially 2" to 3" cams) after that long pitch. But what if the leader arrives without the necessary gear? I think belaying off of whatever is left on the rack which kind of sort of fits is BS. A belay anchor needs to be bombproof. Anything less is an invitation for a tragedy. Yes, occasionally bolts are appropriate and since there is already a stance at about 50m that has two bolts (or studs), I don't see the harm in replacing them with modern gear.

Well you see, that's just it. You read my statements and, unable to refute their truth ...but simultaneously lacking the courage to abandon your bolt-clipping ways....you find yourself conflicted and you blame me for delivering a message that leaves you feeling hollow about your participation in an activity which you previously identified as real rock climbing but which has been exposed to be something else. Again, you wish I'd go away, and rather than come to grips with this reality, you invent some kind of character flaw, a dichotomy between who I really am and what I say on this message board, when in fact, I'd be happy to carry on this discussion in your company (if you're buyin'). You might be surprised at the impact a small number of vocal people can have when they expose sport climbing for what it is....why do you think Dwayner (and several others including me) were denied participation here? From this I gather that you do remember me (you must have been really dazzled), since you allude to the fact that I am not 220 lbs and burdoned with a beer gut. Sorry that I can't say I remember you...you must have blended in with the chunky Spanaway zombies who pee, break glass, set up zip lines and practice Aussie rapel technique.

""...guy was the source of an online persona that I'd taken a pretty strong dislike to [sic].. It ain't the "online persona" you dislike. It's the fact that my well-stated position on bolting conflicts with your convenient approach to ethics, and that if I didn't participate in the discussion you wouldn't be challenged to reconsider your endorsement of sport climbing. "..would probably still be way more favorably disposed towards the real person if we ever ran into each other.." Didn't you just say we met at Spire Rock? "..running into a guy that was cruising up and down the toughest sections of rock there while casually chatting with whomever happened to be hanging out at the base.." Not an accurate description of my activities there. I generally don't do a lot of chatting. Only with special people. You must be special.

I was aiding a pitch at Index once when a fellow with an aggressive personality initiated a heated exchange of words with my belayer. I remember thinking, "Gee I hope I'm still on belay. That guy must be a total A-hole." I eventually learned the infinite degree to which my initial impression was correct.

Jason Mikos, a former student and a bad-ass rock jock. I'm going to have to drop in there.

We're talking tube steak.

The guy in the middle?

I've been considering getting a reduction so that I can wear bermuda shorts without tripping somebody. Any of you sport climbers need an organ donation?