ryland_moore

KB, this is not based on speculation. This is based on statemnts made by your friends and from information collected from the SAR/MR folks. What is so difficult about understanding that there was a serious lapse in judgement? That is not speculation. it is fact. if they knew what they were doing, then they would not have neded up where they did. Bottom line. If you carry a GPS then use it. The batteries were fine as that is how the PMR crew found the group of five originally. Even if they forgot to get a waypoint on the way up, knowing that bad weather was coming in, and bad weather goes with white-out conditions, how hard would it be to drop down 400 ft. to take a way point from the top of the Palmer? Not hard at all. Instead they showed lack of common sense and skills necessary to be out there by trying to navigate by compass in a white-out. If they had the orienteering experience, they would have known that this is next to impossible to pull off with no fixed bearing/point to look at and use while descending. They may have been prepared with the gear, but like I said earlier, just because you have it doesn't mean it will do you a damn bit of good. In your terms, kevbone, if you bought a shiny new set of quickdraws, does that automatically make you able to properly lead a sport climb, or belay, or just because you have a shiny new rack, do you automatically know how to place gear, set anchors, or simul-climb with your partner? I'm just saying that they were obviously prepared, and maybe without the MLU, since they did not how to use the rest of their gear properly, they may still be up there. But this is not about speculating and it is clear they got in over their heads because they did not follow the most basic of mountaineering principals and did not listen to the most basic warning signs regarding weather, which they admitted, they knew about.

Kevbone, I have been reading your stuff for a while now, but this is the first time I've ever commented directly to you. You are clearly in the same boat as these idiots who took time, resources, and placed rangers and volunteers in danger because "shit happens." They put themsleves deliberately into a situation that they could not get themselves out of and had no idea what they were doing up there. If they had, they could have simply taken a waypoint at the top of the Palmer lift and easily made it back down to Timberline. Instead they acted in a lazy manner, their judgement was clouded by something, whether it was the sunshine on Saturday or kb, who knows. But they did not take the mountain, those less experienced, seriously and those that rely on the ones who are pretending to have the experience to be up there are in jeapardy (dog included). I am sure if someone had died or was permanently injured or even the dog died, I don't think you would still be saying, "Shit happens." I am surprised you weren't up there with them.....would be quite fitting with the lack of judgement shown on behalf of these snow campers and gives even more fuel for Legislators without a clue to impose new laws on a small group.

I think this is an awesome idea. I spoke on the radio tonight voicing my opinion against any legislation but cannot make it down to Salem for public comment. Anyone in Salem on this board that can go over there to give the climbers a voice? I wrote to my State Representative, but she has not replied. Everyone on this thread needs to do this. This Bill is nothing more than a knee jerk reaction that is unenforceable, takes precious dollars away from an already strapped State budget, and will do very little to reduce SAR rescues and costs. I wonder if it will even save any additional lives that could be saved by using sound judgement and other means out of the ten essentials. It may even put more people in harms way and give people a false sense of security that if I go into the mountains and carry one of these, I will be rescued anyway so I will push it. It creates a false safety net that the State cannot provide, staff, or fund. I would like to see the proposed budget, what it will cost and then what is the benefit and how many people will benefit from this in the climbing community. Becasue that is all it will affect when dealing with the 10,000 ft. elevation issue...

Will MLU's be available? Maybe the State can try the "honor system" like the City of Portland did with it's yellow bicycles idea. They just put out about 20 yellow bikes for anyone to ride arlound on and had certain bike racks you could return the bikes to on an honor system. Within a week, all bikes were gone. You'd see a homeless man riding one every so often....

Wha???? Hundreds up people each weekend used to climb Hood in the 1930's and earlier during the summer. Founding climbers?

Thanks Cluck. As a member of SAR, do you think that the Legislature should pass a law requiring people to carry MLUs above 10,000 ft? Another observation Since this party was below 10,000' they would not have been required to carry an MLU.

I have yet to see a rescque scenario where an MLU was the sole reason for a rescue. Iain had some information on a previous post about a month ago, but it appeared that it was not the only reason why the climber was rescued. I would also like to know if SAR was notified first becasue of the cell phone calls by the climbers or the fact that the MLU was triggered. Did SAR only know that the MLU was going off becasue of a cell phone call? Like others have said, the MLU Lsignals hav to be monitored by humans and if no one is watching then they will not know a signal has been triggered. Same thing with the guy from Lake O and the woman from HR injured earlier this year. He triggered his MLU but also had a cell phone and a doctor who crossed his path while descending. The MLU did not start the rescue, the doctor and the cell phone did.

Yes, but they were using their cell phones and if they actually did have a GPS unit as discussed, they could have read off the GPS their exact location to the rescuers.....Regardless, there was no need for an MLU to be used in this rescue scenario and it did not provide them with any new information that the rescue team could not have garnered from what the climbers were carrying already.

Yeah, we were flying so fast that we missed it but doubled back before trekking in there!

I had my ACL and meniscus replaced recently(ACL in December 05)and meniscus in March '05. I tore the meniscus while heading into Mowich side of Rainier. Had to hop out all the way from the saddle above the glacier to the TH. It tore because I was missing my ACL, which I tore on Denali in '03 but nevIer knew about it (I heard the pop skiing down from 11k to 9,800 to pick up a cache but kept climbing). the meniscus tore due to lack of support from no ACL. Anyway, when I got the meniscus fixed, I took many recs. from friends who were skiers, climbers, and snowboarders, plus runners and bikers. Overwhelmingly they recommended the Portland Knee Clinic. These guys were awesome! With the meniscus surgery, I was actually dancing for St. Patrick's day one week after the surgery. The ACl surgerer was more intense and painful, but my doc wanted me moving around on crutches within 5 days post surgery and in the gym 10 days after the surgery. he really pushed me. I had the patella ACL surgery. This was recommended to me by my doc becasue of how active I was. He said that if I wanted a quick recovery that this was the best way to go. Hamstring version takes a lot longer to recover. Cadaver you do have a chance of rejection (not sure how this works becasue no blood flow but that is what they said) My first night in the gym I met a guy who had ACL surgery over a yeaw ago who had the hamstring hsurgery and he said he was on cruthes for three months and never got into the gym until after 5 months. He could not walk normally for 4 monts and was only able to run after 6 months. I on the other hand was already training for a half ironman by January, and running up to 10 miles by end of February. The only down fall with a patella tendon surgery is that the knee can be sore and it will be difficult to ever remain on your knees for a long period of time. I didn't care about this and it has not affected me since. It is sore from time to time, but doesn't affect my climbing or training for triathlon. A good doctor is key. I would go to whomever the Seattle Sonics use. The Portland Knee Clinic is who the Trailblazers use as well. Good luck!

I understand about taking a compass bearing and then having difficulty staying on it in a whiteout, but the GPS would have prevented this if they had taken a point reading at Timberline. I have this stored in my GPS, so every time I am up there, I can get back to Timberline. If they had a track on the way up, then they could have easily followed it back and never would have ended up close to white river canyon. Even if they forgot to take a reading at Timberline, someone could have easily dropped down to the top of the Palmer lift and taken a point there, then followed the chair lift back down. I've had to do this several times when I couldn't tell rwhat was up or down in a whiteout and vis was down to 30 ft. with no depth perception at all. Mistakes were obviously made and a carefree attitidue seems to have been in play. It was awesome on Saturday, burt all climbers know that weather can turn on a dime in the Cascades, plu s a large system was shown moving in late Saturday. I think there is a difference between being an optimist vs. being a realist in mountaineering during the winter. The margin of error can mean huge consequences being an optimistic is what is costing a ton of money and placing rescuers and volunteers in harms way. Having gear does not make you safe. Knowing how to use it can. Are you one of the 5 who were "rescued" last night?

That Place rocks!

Good call. I probably overstated that part. I should have said something to the likes of "It could be construed that the party of 8 may have relied on something other than sound judgement and that by carrying MLUs, they may have had a false sense of security, but until the party is back and interviews are conducted we won't know the whole truth. However, it does seem ironic to me that they were carrying MLUs and headed up in incliment weather, full-well knowing the dangers and did not observe the obvious warning signs available to them on Saturday."

I am not saying that an MLU is being advertised as preventing an accident but in this case, it seems that the party used it as a false sense of security. They chose to carry an MLU over one of the most basic 10 essentials a map and compass. Or even better, a GPS. If they had been carrying the latter, there would have been no need for an MLU as they would have returned to Timberline without incident and the party of three would have never fallen over a cliff/cornice to begin with. Plus, hey headed up in incliment weater or decided not to head down before incliment weather arrived (dependinig on when they went up - Friday or Saturday). Just all around bad judgement. But I think that the MLU should not be praised in this situation or the party carrying them, but that it should be looked at to see if the party relied on them and decided to head up in bad weather because they had there "safety net". I do not trust them and will never carry one regardless of the law and will rely on my GPS and cell phone in case something really bad happens, but will mainly rely on sound judgement and my internal knowledge to carry me through a bad situation. I don't rely on my avi tranceiver when venturing into the backcountry to tell me if conditions are safe to go skiing, so why would I rely on an MLU to save me in a situation that I got myself into in the first place. I wouldn't even carry an MLU is it were handed out for free at Timberline. Just my opinion.

I have to agree with you guys as well. The weather forecast for Saturday was always great all last week, with weather deteriorating late Saturday and bad all day Sunday. Why anyone went up there unless to take laps and get a workout under the chair lift for a Denali training or something is beyond me. Absolutely ridiculous. Also, I would like to know more about how the MLUs helped/hindered. Sounds like they do not provide pinpoint accuracy, but since there is a proposed bill for all of us to carry one, I would like to know 1) If they provided sound information as to the location of the party 2) If the rescue could be carried on without one in this situation (b/c the party was using cell phones)3)What benefits did the MLUs provide to the party by carrying them. 4) Do you think the party was overly optomistic in going up in bad weather becasue they were carrying an MLU (ie. false sense of security). My argument is that if the party of 8 were carrying a GPS unit instead of an MLU they would not have ventured into White River Canyon and would nt have required a rescue to begin with. Last time I checked a GPS unit is about $300 cheaper than an MLU and does not involve volunteer resources or pulling money away from an already strapped State budget to serve a very small sector of the overall population.

Anyone know if this is the highest and longest anyone has been without suplemental oxygen?

Heck yeah, it's free! Someone pays $500 intro to get the credit card under the name George Washington and gives his address at some house where there are 15 illegals staying in a 2 bedroom house. Then the card holder bolts after maxing out the card at say $2000, never to be heard from again. What is B of A going to do? Mark it on his credit report? Oh wait, B of A didn't have a ss# to access the individual's credit report, or a real name, or even a birth certificate. Good luck on getting their money back. I guess they will just have to pawn off their losses onto all of their other law-abiding patrons.......

I acutally can't wait to hear about all of the credit cards from B of A given out to illegals with "George Washington" or Arnold Schwartzenegger" on them! Anyone know what their "high introductory fee" and high interest rates are going to be? I'd say this is worse than Oregon giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses without any proof of age, citizenship, or a ss#. Or maybe it is a consiracy by the Feds to find out how many illegal immigrants are actually in the US? Free money? They will come out of the woodwork for sure!

I always look forward to the Uncle Sam billboard as a source of free entertainment when driving north to my climbs. Always wonder what that guy will come up with next! I am also too tempted to turn around and look at the other side as I pass instead of waiting until my return trip.....

As one who works with farmers in the Yakima, this is a unique situation where you had an illegal immigration 'bust' occur just before the picking season occurred, coupled with the fact that alot of those orchards are not off the beaten path and right on main highways. It is difficult for the illegals to get away from ins or sherriffs offices and easier for them to be picked up if they are picking in orchards right on the mcain highway. This is why some orchardists are flush with workers and others struggle to get their apples picked.

Joesph, I would take it a step further. There is a problem with both illegal employers and illegal immigrants. You cannot say that it is not the fault of immigrants who come here illegally. It is their faults just as much as it is the people who employ them. If I said to you, I will give you $1 million for free, but it was stolen from a bank, dboes that mean it is o.k. for you to accept the money? or is any less illegal? I think businesses who hire illegal workers should be fined and the penalties should be high enough that it would deter most businesses from doing so, but untithe penalties for hiring illegals far outweighs the cost savings they reap from paying lower wages, then it will not have much of an affect. I am also calling B.S. on the post that illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans "won't do". I personally know of two people in Louisiana who were fired in the shrimping business becasue they were being paid $10/hour and the company started hiring illegals to pay them $4.25/hour. Yes, there are jobs out there that most americans won't do, but there are also jobs that American citizens are lossing, then do not have the job skills to go after mor lucrative jobs. Almost every highschool drop out in America will be competing with aaaillegal immigrants for these jobs. Maybe not jobs that you or I would ever want, but definitely low-paying blue collar jobs that do not require a degree. I also have a friend who owns a landscaping business, and his two top competiutors in gresham are oupfits that are owned and run by illegal immigrants. They charge less for the jobs, do great work and pay no taxes. Not even registered with the Sec. of State or incorporated. He estimates he has lost 20-25% of his business to these two "businesses". I think we need more stringent security at the border. I think implementing a guest worker program is awesome and we need to provide better opportunities to those who do want to move here and make it easier for those to obtain citizenship. Anyone who wants to move here and not become at least a dual citizen, learn our heritage, learn the english language (not necessarily using it), pay taxes, and become a citizen of the US is more than welcome to do so. All others should be kept out except for short visas (3-6 months max). I also have another friend who was in the Peace Corps in the Phillipines, got married to a Phillipino and has, for three years, been trying to get her to move here and become a legal citizen. They are married! And yet, she still is required to go back to the Phillipines every 3 months! they have an immigration attorney, have racked up over $60,000 in attorney fees and still she has not been granted citizenship ashile being married to an American. How is this fare? This is not about left vs. right. I belive in global warming and would consider myself a conservationist, work for non-profits, and even voted Kerry and Gore in the last two elections. But our borders do require more security. This is not about hispanics vs. white americans. It is about illegal immigrants coming into the country undocumented. You see thisno where else in the world.

They are also descent at forecasting/suggesting the chance of bad weather approaching within 24 hours.....

I don't think she died with a lot of money. The fortune of her late husband is being battled in the State Supreme Court right now. She was awarded around $400 million several years ago, but that was overturned, so it is still in probate. I think mosat of her money that she has been living off of was from her show on E! The father is either her attorney or her ex-boyfriend a photojournalist. Sad for her daughter though.

coltrane was into hinduism and found or was found by 'the ' 'god' after and thru his addiction. i have made a solemn vow of manual celibacy therefore must pass on your sweet offer. Virendra7, didn't you just come to CC.com during the Hood incident? Damn, 844 posts already? Watch out Dru, you've got competition!