chucK

Here's my advice: Don't fall. What do you think you're doing? Sport climbing? Fear of falling is good. Just because that gear you placed (while on toprope) then fell on (while on toprope) held, doesn't mean the next piece you place is gonna. What you should instead do is learn to realistically figure out when you can and can't do a move. Use all your toprope practice for that. Then when you get out above the gear focus on the fact that you CAN do the move. Do not focus on the possibility of falling. You're climbing. You shouldn't be practicing falling. You should be practicing ascending to the next placement. Chuck

That sucks dude. Before you just give up your right to trail and make this a very cost-effective tactic (34 cents for $50 return) for those bloodsuckers consider this... How far away is the court before to which you are summoned to appear? If you've got the time you should try fighting it. I don't think they can charge you more for just telling your story before the judge. Were you out actually "recreating" near this trailhead [if indeed you were even parked where they said you were], please think before answering. Perhaps, alternatively, you were out performing a community service by picking up trash or otherwise maintaining the trail. Perhaps you had just stopped to take a leak and didn't actually recreate at all? Perhaps it would be worth a try to see if the statute covers people who park at the only safe place around (out of traffic) but then travel cross-country, not using the trails at all? Charlie, if you've got the time, just think...YOU could be a test case! All the way to the SUUUUPREME COURT baby! Chuck

quote: Originally posted by erik: p.s. i am still an conservative Yeah he is! He refused to have anything to do with that controversial Whipsaw climb! [which still has it's hangers by the way.]

I got a fancy-pants Eddie Bauer pack that I found in a park in a rich-people neighborhood. It was in the vicinity of broken beer bottles and had a bunch of beer spilled in/on it. Probably some rich kid out partying, spilled beer on it then had to leave it there so he/she wouldn't get busted by the P's. Haw Haw! Party down some more dudes.

Anybody up there for driving out there tomorrow, i.e. a day trip? And then, you know, climbing some stuff, and perhaps getting a little bit of life sucked out of us? PM or email Chuck

Dwayner, the facilitator! Thanks for your many amusing trip report/anecdotes. You rule. Chuck

That article talks about 7mm perlon. If you got holes big enough for 7mm then go for the perlon; however, mtnrgr said 5mm cord won't fit .What's up with that? I think those hexes are made for the 5.5mm cord. In any case I don't think sub 5mm perlon would be strong enough. Hexes are cheaper than SLCD's yes. Note that the largest hexes (#9-11) are not much lighter than Friends (see http://home.attbi.com/~cspieker/misc/sizerang.htm ). You save less than an oz on #8 hex vs 2.5 friend. Hexes do seem worth the weight and fiddle factor in places with irregular and pockety cracks like Smith. Once you figure out the length of the cord you want (I'd say about 4' or slightly less per hex) make sure you get different colors for each hex. You'll be happy you did. Oh yeah, another thing. To "fuse" the ends, pull the sheath down around the core and chop off about 1/2-1" of the core, then pull the sheath back over and melt that part. Before the molten goo hardens, shape it into a nice tip for threading. Chuck [ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: chucK ]

Hey, What's yer stereotype? from http://www.healthscout.com/According to the Journal of Substance Abuse: Wine drinkers tend to be college-educated and drink in moderation, usually with meals. Beer drinkers tend to have limited educations. They usually drink at times other than meal time. Whiskey drinkers tend to hang out at bars. Wine cooler drinkers don't fit patterns as well as the others, but are usually single and have limited educations. They usually drink when feeling very stimulated, very happy, very romantic.

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: In general to the extent on aspect of climbing is emphasized on a route it is at the expense of the others. A person is under no obligation to like all aspects equally, so to expect a particular climbing experience to be equally rewarding to all is absurd. Well said Peter. If a bolt is added to a climb, it will deemphasize one aspect of the climb at the expense of those who value that aspect. If the bolting is done well it will improve the climb in someone else's eyes. Like I posted before. There is a tradeoff. I think this is important to emphasize because I believe many bolting proponents fail to see any negative aspects of bolting. Without understanding that you are stepping on anyone's toes it is difficult to make decisions that are in the best interests of the community. It is understandable that bolting proponents could be diverted from the main issues with strawman arguments like the "ecological" problems with bolts. So if any of you bolting proponents are still reading this thread I will try to elucidate here my problem with bolts. I am NOT saying that I am against all bolts, or that I will never and have never clipped bolts. Bolts have opened up many climbs to me. If they were not there, I would not have enjoyed the climbs. There are also places where I would not like to see bolts, and places where bolts have detracted from my enjoyment of a climb. So, anyway, suppose you had one of those anti-gravity packs like Cap'n Caveman er.. Kirk on some Star Trek movie I heard about where he climbed El Cap. You have the pack shut off and go about climbing El Cap under your own power, until you slip, whoops, flick the switch, yell "falling" or whatever, and antigravity takes over, you're safe. Whew! Get back set on the rock. Say "climbing" and the pack shuts off and there you go again. If you get tired, just turn on the pack and float down to the bottom. Basically we have here an infinite toprope. No harm to the rock, no dignity beaten out of her. Would I want to climb with one of those gizmos? Hell ya! Sure I would. Sometimes. Sometimes, though, I would NOT want to use that pack, because you know why? It would take out much of the challenge. It would remove that mental aspect of commitment, that need to remove the fear from my head and make a rational decision of whether or not I can make that move 100%. So there's the rub with bolts. If you bolt, you've strapped an analogous safety device to that climb. Future climbers no longer have the choice of not bringing the pack along. And please don't say, "I could just skip the bolts"! That would be equivalent to climbing with the AG pack and promising to yourself that you won't turn it on, even if you are plummeting to your death. I'm not saying noone has the right to put bolts on climbs because I'll no longer be able to scare myself on them. I know people get their joys in many different ways. I firmly believe in the current FA ethic as the only currently practical blanket rule for this dilemna. I'm just letting you know what you'll be taking away if you put those bolts in, to help you make a more informed decision. [ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: chucK ]

quote: Originally posted by JayB: The only places where I think that run-out death routes are inappropriate are at crags frequented by large numbers of climbers and/or beginners. Boldness and commitment have their place but taking a piece of rock that could be enjoyed by a large number or climbers at a local crag and turning it into a mummified death-route [...] Anyhow, not only do I clip bolts I very often get gripped when doing so ( I was sort of hoping that I wouldn't after taking up trad/ice but unhappily, this has not been the case). If the first bolt is more than about 14 feet off the ground, it looks like I could ground out before clipping the second bolt, or it seems I'll fall a long way and/or hit something on the ground I admit that my pulse races, my feet start twitching, and my palms begin to sweat and the fear that I fear forces a concentration and focus, and generates a set of rewards that I've never felt on TR; and that's why I lead them. JayB, In the first part of your above-quoted post you decry climbs where people can get hurt. In the second part you describe the joy you find in climbing such routes. If a mentally and physically challenging climb is established in an area that subsequently becomes popular, are those that enjoy the challenging nature of that climb required to suffer the loss of their climb to ensure the safety of the newcomer beginners?

Peter, Do you seriously believe that the complete removal of bad-fall potential is NOT a major element of the definition of a sport climb? Or are you just playing nit-pick semantic games? Are you just trying to defend gymnastics? WTF? Chuck

quote: Originally posted by pope: I've got a tough time making these pub things, but I realy need some beer.Hah! I'm having a beer right now! "Where do slab climbs fit into the sport-trad spectrum?" Well, if you use my above-stated definition of a sport climb then most of those "modern" slab climbs up at Darrington are sport climbs. On the other hand, the old runout death climbs up there, the more runout ones at Static Point, and the South Platte climbs JayB describes are not. "Does a slab need to be climbed at all?" No. But neither does anything else. Bolting slabs makes them climbable to more people (me included). I don't think that is bad. Nothing out there NEEDS to be climbed. Nothing out there NEEDS to be bolted. Some more so than others. If a climb is easily toproped, I think there's very little reason that it needs to be bolted, e.g. Red M&M's at Vantage. I think it would be interesting to hear from those who think it IS desirable to bolt easily topropable climbs. My previous post on this subject was pure conjecture. I'd be interested to see if it has any basis in fact. I think I pretty well laid out my take on the con's of this practice. What are the pro's?

Yer a blowboater aren't ya!!?

Actually I did just toss out 3 flannels last week. I listened to Nirvana the other day and found that I don't like them anymore, but Sonic Youth still rules! So one day I went to that Exit 32 sporto crag with two friends that had just met that day. Guy #1 pulls out his shiny new gear which includes many dogbone draws. Friend #2, who posts to this board, immediately blurts out "Hey! POSER DRAWS!" Nice first impression. The reason I hate poser/dogbone draws is because I fear their stiffness could cause 1) friends to walk, stoppers to worm out, 2) more rope drag due to not letting the rope orient itself as easily 3) easier rope unclipping in a fall past it. I do agree that they could help in a difficult clip and would certainly like to use them on some of those BB sporto routes that have the clip just out of reach from a nice stance.

You sport climbers!! I hate you guys

quote: Originally posted by pope: [...]wouldn't everybody win if instead of beating the dignity out of the rock with a bunch of bolts, people just established the routes as top-rope climbs? That's the way it used to work, and it worked well. I've often wondered about this too. Here's my best guess. Most people are not completely fulfilled by the "gymnastic" movement aspect. They like a little mix. You know like when you buy a sixer of that primo beer and mix it up a little, a couple of pales , two ambers , two IPA's [NO hefe blech!] etc... Anyway, it seems plausible that some climbers like to be mostly removed from danger and inconvenience, but at the same time like just a little spice, a little committment. Just...need...to...get...to...that...next...bolt. Sorta like on a runout trad lead where you need to concentrate on sucking it up for 30 feet to the next placement, at Vantage you can concentrate on cranking continuously for 5 feet before your next safety anchor. I surmise that for many the desire for the slight tint of danger/committment outweighs their concerns with respect to "beating the dignity out of the rock". Plus there's the lingering mystique of "leading" and the fact that on way overhung stuff it's probably more convenient to lead. Chuck

That's why you shouldn't buy those stupid dogbone draws.

The best definition of a sport climb that I have yet heard goes something like this: A climb bolted in such a way to allow focus on the physical act of climbing free from worry about injury. If you agree with this definition then sport climbing is all about divorcing certain mental aspects from climbing. Some people like sports climbing, some people prefer the whole package. The problem with a bolt is that it removes tangible difficulty from the route. Sure, that difficulty is mental and has nothing to do with ape-index or grip strength, but it is a difficulty that many climbers find enjoyable to overcome. The more bolts proliferate the more this kind of challenge will be removed. Bolts are a tradeoff. For every bolt placement there is a level of climber for whom that bolt "opens up" the route for leading. For climbers above that level, the bolt merely reduces challenge. Chuck

...WTF Johnny yer a blowboater aren't ya!? Noone answers your question between 6:30 and 7:30 am and you get all crazy. You got a paper due this morning? I think cams do multiply the force due to something kind of lever and fulcrum business. Don't know how much. I think it varies dependent on the logarithmic taper of the cam. The tapers vary from brand to brand so bigger or smaller is not really the determining factor of how much the force is multiplied. A bigger cam will continue to push over a greater distance though (more work) and would thus probably have a better chance and pushing a block far enough out to topple. There how was that? Might be correct? Probably get you a better grade than a blank piece of paper. You're welcome, Chuck

Here's to Erik! He makes the married guys feel lucky and the single guys feel smart when he asks for dating advice. He does the dirty job of moderating SPRAY. The only more thankless is probably parking-ticket cop. Here's to Erik! Unabashed defender of Takoma! He's a helluva guy!

I been to Vegas and Cochise twice each so I can compare and contrast those for you. Cochise is more of a wilderness experience, less people, nice camping. I don't think the climbs are as concentrated, at least after the closure (Feb 15 - June) of the Rockfellow Domes. It's also a bit more expensive to get down there than Vegas, and a bunch more hours in the car if you're driving. Alaska has direct flights to Tucson now. Sometimes you can get a special but I doubt it during Spring Break. Vegas is more convenient, but more crowded. The campground there is a dusty, windy, often crowded amphitheater pit that costs $10/day[?]. Next time I go to Vegas I'm gonna take advantage of the millions of hotel rooms. The climbs are more user friendly at Red Rocks, lots of holds and pro and more hand-friendly rock than Cochise. There's lots of great long climbs at Red Rocks. Cochise climbs top out at 4-5 pitches max, maybe 6 on the Sheepshead. Arizona climbs are generally sandbagged. Red Rocks grades are usually soft. Cochise might be a better Fall destination because you'll be more honed for the runouts, sandbags and rough rock, plus the Rockfellow Domes are open then. It's probably more crowded in the Fall though. If secluded nice car camping is very important to you, then Cochise (West side) is a clear choice. Email or pm if you need more beta. Chuck

Wear a helmet. Weight the rap setup before you disanchor. Do that stupid check your partner's knot and harness buckle routine. That's actually caught a mistake for me a couple times in the last few years.

quote: Originally posted by mmcmurra: I found a balloon on the trail to Private Idaho at Index that had a little pre-addressed card attached, asking whoever found it to put it in the mail along with some info about where it was found. Which I did. I think the address was a Girl Scout-type organization in some nearby town. I remember looking up the town and calculating that the balloon made it all of 15 miles ... I was kind of disappointed at both the distance traveled and elevation gained. Wow, nice lesson to be teachin' the youngsters! Maybe for their next project they can write notes on a whole bunch of plastic grocery bags and toss 'em off a bridge into the Skykomish. Chuck

Hey Max! They probably woulda given you more money if you wouldn't have stupidly forgotten to put the NAME of the magazine in the thread name. Sheesh! Chuck

They're indestructible, but heavy as hell.