num1mc

"Into Thin Air" was primarily a first person account, and does seem to jive with the accounts of others. Boukerev does come off poorly, perhaps unjustifiably so. I did not really come out of "Where men Find Glory" with anything other than the occurrences of fratricide is much much higher than we are led to believe. If you follow Krakauers math, friendly fire could account for about 80% of casualties not caused by IED's. Other than that, there may not have really been a lot of substance to the initial story, and that would have hampered Krakauer. The cover ups were more of a series of FUBAR's and half hearted attempts. I think if you look at the time-line for the development of "Into The Wild", you will see that it was written before some of these scientific findings regarding toxins and the like. Could you elaborate further on these fabrications you find so common and disturbing? That does not seem true. Several sources in the media have examined CAI's IRS returns and budget as posted on their web-site. It appears that many costs were reported as program expenses when they truthfully were fund raising expenses. With this budgetary slight of hand, their program percentage costs were dramatically and improperly increased. Most people understand this, except for some die hard dupes. The costs incurred by CAI to advertise Mortensons books and fly Mortenson around are at best marginal expenses by any non-profit, and in reality should have been bared by Mortenson alone. It is likely that these were a conflict of interest, forced down the throat of a weak board who is under the spell of a cult of personality, by an individual who has succumbed to his own hype. Ron Judd had a front page article about Mortenson several days ago. He recounted that Mortenson telling in 2001 of his first entrance to Korphe was very similar to the story recounted in "Three Cups of Tea". The story in TCT was been identified as fiction, and Mortenson has claimed that the story was constructed by David Relin. But Ron Judd's 2001 interview with Mortenson was prior to David Relin and Mortenson even meeting. So GM's throwing David Relin under a bus to hide his own lies

Where you the biggest, oldest or smartest kid in your class? Anyway, congratulations. Did any of the teachers hit up on you?

But it was the same bed

This subject has been discussed on other forums Link to ST discussion Ownership in this area is complicated, and is divided between the State, several timber companies and at least one individual Link to Snohomish County iMap system and the area is inside the Reiter Foothills Recreation Plan Area Link to DNR While I certainly could be wrong, and I am not fully aware of the actions of the WCC, I know that all user groups will be clamoring for access. It will be difficult to allow boulderers to drive, while forcing hikers, fishermen, hunters, history buffs, mine aficionados and single track riders to walk or bicycle. Washington State Parks has expressed interest in extending trails from Wallace Falls State Park along the old and existing logging roads into this area, but these plans are threatened by budgetary problems The USFS is also happy with this situation. While the creation buffer zones around Wilderness areas is prohibited by law, some sort of defacto buffer to the Wild Sky makes some happy. Reestablishing the road to the Jumbo could increase the pressure for a proper trail to Lake Isabel, something the USFS is against, even though they allow planes to land on the lake The walk is not onerous, and if one branches right fairly early, there is a nice trail which avoids the old road all the way to the Jumbo

Good on you Sobo, payback time for the AAC/Access Fund/TPL/Peshastin Pinnacles debate which ragged between us. I know you've been waiting for me to make a miss step, so you could pounce.

A synopsis: Climbers get off route and benighted in a storm on Hayes, and set off a SPOT like device. USAF to the rescue. http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/04/01/1947296/beacon-proves-golden-in-mens-mountain.html Now the questions about both the rescue and the "right thing to do". http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1463619/A-hard-ethical-decision-we-need-help

Here is another recap of a Mountaineers thread from almost ten years ago. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/25208/1 The thing is, these Mountaineers honchos coming in here to defend things is kind of like a fat guy showing up at a cannibal convention and saying "I smell BBQ! Let's eat!".

Not like BITD

For those who need to keep up on such things http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/16333/1

I was just joking. I know that the Mountaineers have been, and continue to be very involved in conservation and recreation. They have voiced concern, taken stances and been involved in all the topics you have listed. The Mountaineers are not just a climbing club, and some issues may bring about division in the club. The stances of the conservation committee may at times be at odds with the wishes of climbers, and by extension, the climbing committee. This was not always true. Climbers led much of effort to create the NCNP. But the trend for climbing to be more akin to say mountain biking than backpacking has widened some of the gulfs between climbers and strict conservationists. This is easily demonstrated by the constant debate about bolting, fixed draws, tree cutting, chalk, fixed slack lines and stashed pads on this and other boards.

Bla bla bla These are minor points, of interest to only a few. While you were OCD'ing about this tripe, the Mountaineers Climbing Committee was hard at work lobbying the AAC and the UIAA for world-wide standards regarding rope coiling. From this ground breaking work, one will soon be able to receive full club sanctioned certification as a rope coiler. Experienced climbers without certification may apply for special "Advanced Rope Coiling Equivalency" which may be granted after said climber attends a three hour rope coiling lecture, and passes a written test.

I remember Ginger. I was thinking her name was Ginger Baker, then I remembered that Ginger Baker was a he, and played in Cream. I also remember Dick Beckenbaugh, Mike Nelson, Katy Kelso, Erhardt Weichert, Ed Vervoort and Janet Oliver. Big Wall Bob was an interesting person. AJ denied him entrance to the Intermediate Climbing Course because of (accurately) perceived incompetence. That strengthened his resolve and obsession, and he went to Yosemite. As Peder Ourom told me, Bob backed off El Cap ten times before he climbed it. He went on the climb El Cap a bunch, including the fifth ascent of the PO, and the third ascent of Cal and Dave's route on the West Face. But by 22, he was all but out of climbing. He later got in some trouble with big time drug crooks in Mammoth, I believe. He later found god and then off 'ed himself, all before he was thirty. I knew several people who were in the climbing committee, and I remember hearing about the clash of personalities and goals. The seventies were the start of PC, and the Climbing Committee was filled with baby boomers and their (wacky) ideas. I don't know how much the Climbing Committee has changed, but if I look at the individuals I know who are still involved with climbing committees, I would say that the BS has not diminished at all. I'm sure they have many discussions about the best way to coil a rope, and anyone who disagrees with their way of rope coiling is either a hopeless radical, a crazy hieratic or inherently stubborn.

Ed Peters was really cool. He shared a house with Bob Lund. Bob Swanson was around then. AJ was nice, but also a little odd. Ken Small was also active in the club then, as was Steve Costie. Steve was a basic and later intermediate student with me, and he later became the long time Executive Director of the club, retiring recently.

Alright, maybe I'm a bit hazy. I remember them being horrible ropes. I was in the Basic in '75, and graduated from the Intermediate in '77. The other young climbers I remember were Alan and Ann Tarver, Roy Hackbarth, Paul Kremer, the late Bob (later Back-off Bob, and later still- Big wall Bob) Williams, Mike Balise, Sue McQueen, Betsy Visco (now there is a story!), Jon Carpenter and Russ Erickson. My own MSR came pre-dyed!

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/437837_avalanche28.html This is a very sad accident. Riley's father is a climber, and his aunt and uncle are particularly well known Seattle area climbers

I also remember going out on the lower Niqually Glacier for crevasse rescue practice as a student in 1975 and as a first year Intermediate instructor in 1976, and we were using club supplied manilla ropes of about 1" diameter. In 1977, Larry Penberthy either had or lost a contract to supply the US Army with shitty climbing ropes, and somehow the Mountaineers procured about a mile of crappy olive green MSR climbing rope, which was actually reprocessed yacht rope.

I took the Mountaineers courses in the seventies. Even back then there were attempts to reform the club, most of which failed. In 1979, Bill Sumner was recruited and agreed to join the Climbing Committee. This was in an early attempt to alter the monolithic nature of the courses, and to bring many of the climbing techniques up to a more modern nature. His membership was vetoed by Howard Stainsbury because Bill was not a member of the club. Individuals of the Committee then offered to pay for Bill's membership. At this point Howard dug in his heals and stated that because Bill was not a graduate or student of any Mountaineers course, that his membership in the Climbing Committee was strictly verboten. It was never clarified whether this stance by the Director was as per Club bylaws and statue, or merely the old guard acting like an intransigent ostrich with its head in the ground, and Bill tired of the BS.

In addition to Tom Miller, George Sainsbury has also passed away http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/seattletimes/obituary.aspx?n=george-ross-sainsbury&pid=149440908

Your maps don't show the NF boudary? My USGS and TOPO maps show the boundary as about 3/8 of a mile SE of the turnoff for the South Suiattle RD

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1348291/Willis-Wall-Winter-Wonderland-Pics http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1099882/Where-are-They-Now-Old-Leavenworth-Wa-Climbers

Sold

**********On hiatus********* While I reply to several respondents

Set of 21 AAJ's and two Index's 1988-1994 1997-2010 Index 1929-1976 Index 1977-1986 Sold complete $65 FOB Snohomish WA

Talk about a happy ending

I don't know for certain, but I would imagine that there are Congressional and Departmental limits and guidelines on how concession funds are spent. Remember that while the money generated in MRNP and NCNP (for instance) is rather paltry, the funds generated by Yellowstone and Yosemite are huge.