ken4ord Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 My buddy took a factor 2 onto a clove and that shit got welded, had to cut the rope. Damn, that's the first I've heard of that. Guys like John Long recommend tying into their primary with a figure eight loop then clove hitch to any additional pieces. I guess there is a very good reason for this. i think it'd be pretty hard to untie an 8 if you went factor 2 onto it... That may be true, but it would be less likely to actually melt. Sista pleaz....I don't think rope would actually melted. I think he was using 'welded', as a term meaning couldn't get it untied. Sometimes I don't know about you CBS. Quote
catbirdseat Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 Welded or melted. Does it matter? No. Let's split hairs here, shall we? End result a knot that can't be untied. I don't know whether it is possible to get melting- maybe so. It is known that slippage can occur with clove hitches, so if melting could occur, it would happen with the clove. Quote
pope Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 I was aiding a pitch at Index once when a fellow with an aggressive personality initiated a heated exchange of words with my belayer. I remember thinking, "Gee I hope I'm still on belay. That guy must be a total A-hole." I eventually learned the infinite degree to which my initial impression was correct. Quote
JayB Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 Funny. I remember being at Spire Rock about 10 years ago, not too long after I picked up my first pair of shoes, and running into a guy that was cruising up and down the toughest sections of rock there while casually chatting with whomever happened to be hanging out at the base. The guy seemed pretty cool in person, and I remember asking this guy what he did for a living and hearing something about teaching and doing a bit of coaching on the side. A few years later, when someone told me that this guy was the source of an online persona that I'd taken a pretty strong dislike to, I couldn't believe that the two personalities belonged to the same person. I still get annoyed with the online persona from time to time, but would probably still be way more favorably disposed towards the real person if we ever ran into each other. Quote
pope Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 ""...guy was the source of an online persona that I'd taken a pretty strong dislike to [sic].. It ain't the "online persona" you dislike. It's the fact that my well-stated position on bolting conflicts with your convenient approach to ethics, and that if I didn't participate in the discussion you wouldn't be challenged to reconsider your endorsement of sport climbing. "..would probably still be way more favorably disposed towards the real person if we ever ran into each other.." Didn't you just say we met at Spire Rock? "..running into a guy that was cruising up and down the toughest sections of rock there while casually chatting with whomever happened to be hanging out at the base.." Not an accurate description of my activities there. I generally don't do a lot of chatting. Only with special people. You must be special. Quote
JayB Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 Well, I'd say that given the fact that several years worth of exposure to your position on bolting has done nothing to alter my opinions on bolts or ethics, nor anyone else's that I'm aware of, your estimation of the challenge that they've presented anyone's perspective may be a tad overstated. Since I'm dealing with the online persona that I don't particularly care for, and once again that entity is flinging a bit of shit my way despite having said some moderately complimentary things about the person associated with it, I guess I should feel free to respond by telling the online persona that I also find the contrast between the persona's rhetorical aggressiveness on the internet to be an amusing contrast with the characteristics of the said persona's real world build, and that the said contrast between the two just about always makes both the on and offline parts of my persona chuckle while recalling the figure that Dorothy et al uncovered at the conclusion of their wanderings about Oz. Quote
pope Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 Well, I'd say that given the fact that several years worth of exposure to your position on bolting has done nothing to alter my opinions on bolts or ethics.. Well you see, that's just it. You read my statements and, unable to refute their truth ...but simultaneously lacking the courage to abandon your bolt-clipping ways....you find yourself conflicted and you blame me for delivering a message that leaves you feeling hollow about your participation in an activity which you previously identified as real rock climbing but which has been exposed to be something else. Again, you wish I'd go away, and rather than come to grips with this reality, you invent some kind of character flaw, a dichotomy between who I really am and what I say on this message board, when in fact, I'd be happy to carry on this discussion in your company (if you're buyin'). ...nor anyone else's that I'm aware of... You might be surprised at the impact a small number of vocal people can have when they expose sport climbing for what it is....why do you think Dwayner (and several others including me) were denied participation here? ...I also find the contrast between the persona's rhetorical aggressiveness on the internet to be an amusing contrast with the characteristics of the said persona's real world build... From this I gather that you do remember me (you must have been really dazzled), since you allude to the fact that I am not 220 lbs and burdoned with a beer gut. Sorry that I can't say I remember you...you must have blended in with the chunky Spanaway zombies who pee, break glass, set up zip lines and practice Aussie rapel technique. Quote
Lambone Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 been gone for almost two years now and this f'kn web site hasn't changed a bit! ha! nice rant JayB pope spewing about bolts already by the second page in a thread that has nothing to do with bolting or sport climbing... Quote
RuMR Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 pope is just cranky cuz it was don's turn last night.... Quote
Alasdair Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 I am a little confused about how anyone would allow themselves to take a fall directly onto a clove hitch. I can not think of a single way short of jumping off a ledge tied into the belay with slack that you should be taking a factor 2 directly onto a clove hitch. If your buddy really did take a factor 2 onto a clove hitch then he should take a serious look at the systems he is using and figure out how to do it correctly. Quote
Lambone Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 I am a little confused about how anyone would allow themselves to take a fall directly onto a clove hitch. I can not think of a single way short of jumping off a ledge tied into the belay with slack that you should be taking a factor 2 directly onto a clove hitch. If your buddy really did take a factor 2 onto a clove hitch then he should take a serious look at the systems he is using and figure out how to do it correctly. you have to look closer at my posts on the first page. My partner was cleaning a pitch on a fixed rope. P4 of Tangerine Trip, El Cap. The pitch goes up for 100ft, then over and down for about another 100ft. He had just finished cleaning the downward traverse (in which he was above the belay) doing a series of lower outs with jumars and a gri-gri. He came to the last piece before the anchor which was about 20ft directly above me. It was a fixed lost arrow. I told him to lower off it and swing into the belay. He took his jugs off, started lowing a foot or two and the pine broke in half. Factor 2d (or damn close) on to a clove hitch that i had hime fixed on, bad idea. Hope that makes sense. Not mentioned was that it was almost midnight and we were totaly worked. In hindsight since he was effectively in a leading position, not a cleaning position at that point I should have had him on belay. What I didn't mention is that I had a second back-up rope (he wouldn't leave the ground without it) that I was belaying him off my harness with. His fixed rope caught first on the anchor. roped soloing... On another climb (solo of Zodiac) I fell onto a clove hitch halfway up the Nipple Pitch. I clove hitched the bolt at the Nipple to prevent the rope rubbing on an edge when cleaning, then took a fall two moves later. It was a rough fall with only about 15ft of rope out from the clove. What I learned: don't clove pieces when you are rope soloing, Werner Braun confirmed this by later telling me that cloves had been severed in this application from the force of the biner smashing the clove into the rock. in other words, don't be an idiot like me! Quote
underworld Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 the factor 2 on the clove hitch you talk about - do you think that it was actually a good thing? since they slip, this could be a 'screamer' affect and might have helped mitigate some of hte loading on the anchor?? just a thought. Quote
Lambone Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 no, not a good thing at all. I doubt the clove slipped. It had been weighted from him jugging an entire pitch allready. the fall was onto one biner on one bolt, and didn't weight the powerpoint. cloves can break. i am not sure at what weight they break under. basically it was exactly waht you DON'T want to do, which is why I'm telling the story. Quote
Raindawg Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 recalling the figure that Dorothy et al uncovered at the conclusion of their wanderings about Oz. Oh? You read that book too? Quote
billcoe Posted October 15, 2006 Posted October 15, 2006 recalling the figure that Dorothy et al uncovered at the conclusion of their wanderings about Oz. What is being said here exactly anyway? Was the Doctor or Professor Marvel using a clove hitch to keep Dorothy from leaving, or was this something those bastards the "Flying Monkeys" were employing? ? We're not sure? Quote
Drederek Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 I use my retired ropes in construction applications from time to time and can confirm that some welding of the sheath can occur. Once was pulling sheets of plywood out of the ground with a backhoe and the other trying to square up some ironwork with a cumalong. In both cases some (not even close to all) of the sheath actually melted together and made the knots even more difficult to untie. The backhoe weld was created dynamically by repeatedly jerking on the rope (while raising the back of the machine off the ground) while the cumalong was probably more static as once the rope was as long as it was gonna get it became a static line. I wonder if the guy pulling stuff apart with the tank did any "welding"? And lets not get started with the flying monkeys please. Quote
waterboy Posted October 19, 2006 Posted October 19, 2006 i think it'd be pretty hard to untie an 8 if you went factor 2 onto it... I heard that if you take a factor 2 on a figure 8 it actually becomes a figure 16. Quote
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