forrest_m Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 I assume that the people who are saying that there is a fundamental safety difference with "alpine" belaying are mostly joking*. I don't think anyone seriously advocates sloppy habits like taking your brake hand off the rope. I think the real difference is not so much that an alpine belay is "inattentive" but it's definitely less active. While belaying a sport climber, I feel like I'm an active part of the enterprise. I'm paying out slack, I'm pulling it in, I'm anticipating falls and clips, I'm encouraging and spewing beta. On the other hand, when alpine climbing, it is very common to not be able to see your partner. To keep rope drag manageable, the leader is often using long slings and therefore clipping the sling into the rope below their waist and doesn'pull up much or any rope to clip. Communication is difficult. Therefore, an alpine belay is often "inactive" i.e. you just leave a bit of slack in the rope and pay out more as that gets used up. Meanwhile, you are eating a gu, or whatever. * It's true that on easy ground many alpine climbers employ unorthodox belay strategies in the interests of time, and poor anchors are sometimes (though not often) a fact of life in the mountains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 In the dumb-ass gym lead cave you have to stand in the right place and shit so as not to get the rope in the way of the leader. Sport climbers are way serious about their belays because, well, they don't have anything else to worry about and they have to blame someone when they keep falling on the sloper to the monodoit crossover after the fourth bolt. Sweet! More well-thought-out wisdom on "how sport climbers do it"! That's what we need more of around here; some solid generalizations about how petty, egotistical, and stupid sport climbers are. Its not overgeneralization, its called the truth. Sport climbers do not have as much experience with the variety of climbing techniques as those who engage in the many other disciplines of climbing. Time for beer It's this bullshit about how sport climbers "have to have someone to blame when blah blah blah." Come on, are you really that narrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 That's what I thought he meant, at first, but who would dream of trying a hip belay in a gym? If it were allowed, I might use a waist belay for a smaller partner or a "slab" route. Maybe that's why they have rules, to prevent idiots like me from getting somebody hurt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daler Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Are you saying a sport climber can't be an alpine climber? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 So, was it a hip belay or a bowline around the waist? Come on Perkins, tell us!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted January 22, 2003 Author Share Posted January 22, 2003 There's a lot to be learned from sport climbing, but I find that too often those that only "sport-climb" tend to take themselves much too seriously. Flash you are clearly not an exception to this stereotype Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Nah, it's just that the jive-ass generalizations about sport climbers are pretty tired. Plenty of alpenkraggers are prone to taking themselves 70cm-ice-ax-up-the-ass seriously, which usually manifests as some kind of quip about how lame sport climbers are. Oddly, it's mighty rare to hear bolt-clippers disparaging the alpine set. What's with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek_the_Greek Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Sport climbers get way more practice catching hard falls than alpine climbers do. They also deal with real groundfall potential way more than alpine climbers. That's why good belaying takes a lot of work on a hard (note - term is relative to climber ability!) sport climb. It's the proper payout of slack for clipping vs a tight belay to avoid groundfalls that makes it so active. Of course falls on mountain routes, when they do happen, are way more serious, but they're rare, so belayers are sloppier (and all the stuff about the lack of good anchors and trying to save time using quick hip belays and all that too). As a big generalization: Crag climbing (especially sport): high probability of falling, low consequences if we do (assuming a good belay) Alpine climbing: low probability of falling (usually because we don't push ourselves as much), high consequences if we do (assuming a good belay) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Sport climbers... They also deal with real groundfall potential way more than alpine climbers. Not if they're real Sportos then they got the CHEATERSTICK out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted January 22, 2003 Author Share Posted January 22, 2003 Everything that is wrong with sport climbing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mer Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Not if they're real Sportos then they got the CHEATERSTICK out. Now the sporto climbers are going to get all huffy and remind you that it's actually called a STICKCLIP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Note that the illustration is exaggerating the merits of sport climbing to give sophisticated sprot climberrrrs a chance to chuckle. So aid climbers don't use cheater sticks, trad climbers don't consume eatables, alpine climbers never wear puffy jackets when it's cold out, and people who need a rescue never use cell phones? God, Tammi Knight needs to write some cartoons about this site. "Like shooting fish in a barrel". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Wait a minute here, you mean there's ever finer divisions? "Brave" sport climbers don't use a cheaterstick? Only "wimpy" sport climbers use a stick to further sport climbing's premise of pure athletic difficulty with reduced risk? What do you call a sport climber who inspects, scrubs, rehearses, wires, and then bolts a route with the first bolt way off the deck? Is that a "bold" sportclimber? As anyone who's done it will tell you, hitting the deck sucks. If you're gonna get down and wallow in the frothy delights of sport climbing, why hold back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 ALL BOULDERING FALLS ARE GROUNDFALLS........................OOPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scot'teryx Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Scot'teryx gave me a belay test at Cascade Crags, where you are required to anchor yourself to the floor when toproping. I did? When was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Scot'teryx gave me a belay test at Cascade Crags, where you are required to anchor yourself to the floor when toproping. I did? When was that? The night of Alan Kearney's talk. I was climbing in my mountain boots for shits 'n giggles, with my girlfriend. I remember overhearing someone call you Scott, and then noticed that certain routes named after Himalayan places were set by a "Scott". Seemed like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Geez, has it already been a whole year since anybody has talked about Alpine Belays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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