troubleski Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 thought this might be of inerest to someone .... employment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 PAY US TO WORK FOR US AND THEN IF OYU WANT TO GO ON A TRIP WITH US WE ONLY CHARGE YOU WHAT IT COSTS US???? Â HMMMMMM Â PRO DEALS ARE EASIER TO FIND THEN HO'ING YOURSELF OUT Â HAVE FUN WITH IT Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Gee, that seems like a pretty bad deal. Good in concept, provided you run th biz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawgoddess Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 there are other orgs that do the same thing. i think someone got burned one too many times - training people for free only to have them go "work" somewhere else ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COL._Von_Spanker Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003  In order to work for API, all prospective guides must participate in a rafting guide training course, offered each spring. Here are the details of this year’s course: Dates: March 22 through May 4, 2003, weekends only. The course lasts seven weekends including a graduation float with Easter weekend off.  Cost: $350 if paid in full by February 1, 2003. After February 1, cost is $400 including a $100 deposit. You may cancel at least 30 days in advance for a full refund, less than 30 days before the course the deposit is non-refundable, and there are no refunds once the course begins. That’s only $25 per course day if you pay by February 1.  So you have to pay to take the class to be a prospective employee? Screw that. Why don't they hire a qualified person and then have them take the orientation. It's called an investment in your employees.  I think they are trying to troll people who want to get jobs in the outdoor industry to take the class so they can make some dough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawgoddess Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 i'm sure that's at least partly true - lotsa interest; next-to-no jobs ... and no jobs offered without experience or training. what's this world coming to??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 plus i am sure their $400 accredidation class gets respect no where cept their co. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 And probably 3/4 of what they teach you in the course we already know, thus wasting our money even more. Â I wonder how many times I've gone to training of some sort to "better myself" only to find I already know half of what they're teaching (or can come to understand it at a pace that is so much faster than they're teaching me, thus boring me even more). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troubleski Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 hmmm... they seem to be all over the place actually... river guide training Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I wonder how many times I've gone to training of some sort to "better myself" only to find I already know half of what they're teaching (or can come to understand it at a pace that is so much faster than they're teaching me, thus boring me even more). Â The perils of being just too f*n bitchin'. Sucks to be you dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 This is not a new concept and is all over the outdoor industry. From NOLS, to Exum, to others as well, you have to go through a training course to prove your abilities and learn the ropes so to speak. It is also a way to weed out those who are committed to this job as a career and those that are just looking for something to do during the summer. I am surprised the NPS doesn't require their rangers to pay, but in a way, they already are in geting all of the medical training that they are required to have. There are even folks on this site who have paid groups like Mountaineers and Mazamas to learn new skills, I just see this as a way to get paid back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COL._Von_Spanker Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 You mentioned some very different organizations. Â NOLS at least has some credibility in the outdoor recreation industry. Â Mounties are way different. Â And the mounties don't post job listings and then say "but to get this job you have to pay $400, and take a class and even then you probably won't get the job" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Actually, law enforcement rangers for the NPS do have to pay. In order to be a LEO (aka, "Danger Ranger"), they must complete a program to get a 'commission' similar to those required for chp, police, etc. It is paid for out of pocket. As for training to run a campground? The interp rangers usually rely largely on previous training and spend a lot of their off-clock time reading up on info for their programs (at least this was the case in Tuolumne). Â long live the pickle suit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 While it's kind of shady that you're paying the actual company you'll be working for to get the training you need to work for them, is it really that different than paying for your education in order to learn more so that you can be better qualified for a job? Same basic concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 While it's kind of shady that you're paying the actual company you'll be working for to get the training you need to work for them, is it really that different than paying for your education in order to learn more so that you can be better qualified for a job? Same basic concept. You're stupid. Shut up. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CascadeClimber Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 And the mounties don't post job listings and then say "but to get this job you have to pay $400, and take a class and even then you probably won't get the job" Â Yes and no. You have to pay to take their courses. And intermediate climbing students are conscripted (as a graduation requirement) to teach the beginning students. So you pay for training, then work for free. Â -L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Which is even worse and exactly my point, although not spelled out as clearly. And for Freeclimb, you shut up. DFA makes a good point here. How many folks with MBA's, Master's and Law degrees do you find out there who work for major guide companies as their main occupation? Not many. So it is their education. Why do you think so many guides in the field of guiding got there Bachelor's degree at schools like Prescott? They paid to get the education to work in the field as climbing, rafting, outdoor education, etc. Same as paying to be trained or go through a company's "guide school." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COL._Von_Spanker Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 APPLES AND ORANGES MAN. Â So do colleges say "Job opening for a professor, but first you must complete OUR grad school program for (insert department here) to teach at our school" No, they hire based on qualifications, with the assumption and requirement the the necessary education level and skills are present. Â Law enforcement academy is a nationally accepted training as are many EMT, and fire academys. These are a far cry from John Doe guide service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Well, it's hard to argue with such a well-presented case of solid facts as that. Strong work, you debating champion, you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Ryland dumbass, those "students" (I use the quotes because, having run into Outdoor Education majors, they're not usually that serious about schooling) who paid for their education at schools such as Prescott probably didn't wind up working for the school itself. Notice a difference between paying a future employer an application fee and paying tution at a school (even a trade school --which, BTW, often offers a high percentage chance of getting placed into a job)? Something that tertiary education is supposed to impart is an ability to learn more. Apparently you were one of the stoners who never went on to college. Can't think critically while sparking your bong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 DFA logic: Washington State is equivalent to the Barbizon School of Modeling because both cost money. And after you go to either school, you have a chance of getting a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Col. not necessarily, but do you think someone who went there for maybe undergrad and did some amazing post doc. work elsewhere and was applying for a job there came back, that they wouldn't receive preferential treatment over someone who hadn't gone to that school before? Â I wasn't trying to make a link between getting a job exactly at the place where you get your training, just merely stating that paying for training, like with the Mountaineers where you do not get a job afterwards, or that that is not your main goal, is no different than going to school to a place like Prescott to receive your training. Â Finally, and not to dwell, but people wanting to work for the NOLS, AAI, and other elite guide services (although NOLS may not be considered in this group) far outnumber positions available. I do not have a figure but I would say the numbers applying and those that actually get jobs is a huge difference, where on the scale with say a professor, the application pool is much smaller since there are more prestigious universities, and supply and demand come closer to meeting. I also do not have a probelm with these guide services charging and wanting their staff to be trained the exact way they require in order to run their business. Actually many companies like NOLS are having to close their doors because they cannot afford the cost of insurance. These are not multi-million fortune 500 companies we are talking about here. If you work this job , you are probably barely getting by. I know a few guides who actually live in vans (down by the river) because the cost of rent is too much for their salaries to handle. My two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COL._Von_Spanker Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Same as paying to be trained or go through a company's "guide school." Â It's totally different, and you must be quite the dumbass to not see it. If I got an outdoor rec degree maybe toss in and environmental science degree I could go here and apply for most of the listed jobs. These employers after looking at my education histort and experience would be able to make and eductated asessment of my skill level. Now if applied for the same jobs and just listed certified guide by joe jo-jo jr. Shabadoo guide service it ain't gonna mean shit to anyone but Joey jo-jo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Sorry Freeclimb, I did go to college, a somewhat well-known private university back east,as well as obtaining my Master's degree out here in Planning, Public Policy, and Management and classes working towards my MBA. Â I just think you are too clueless to see where the thread was going or to understand my innuendo regarding the Mountaineers. I was not stating or even trying to compare the Mountaineers or Universities with groups like NOLS, AAI, or even NPS. Just stating that there are people out there who pay to learn to play period. Now whether that is learning from the Mountaineers, Prescott, or NOLS, you are still paying money to learn skills. Except that with NOLS, and others that charge for training, you get to work in the field for that company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Wow, such an incisive view of the Doctor's logic! Thanks for the analysis, buddy! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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