A Scout is:

[tvashtarkatena]

Let's also not forget that the BSA discriminates against adults who would otherwise love to give back to an organization that meant so much to them growing up, but who are unwilling to follow discriminatory policies for any organization.

 

I know, I know, they should just shut up and lie.

 

Thugs.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Social Engineering Thugs come in many forms, but mostly manifest themselves as Lawyers and/or members of the ACLU

 

hmm...pretty sure the aclu ain't part of the governmetn, just a buncha private citizens dedicated to making the government due what it's supposed to, by the rules.

 

Yeah, 'cos nobody ever just caves in because of a prohibitively expensive law suit (or set of law suits over decades) from a bunch of social engineering types.

 

And never mind lobbyists, or lawyers twisting things the way they want over decades to realize an agenda.

[tvashtarkatena]

Social Engineering Thugs come in many forms, but mostly manifest themselves as Lawyers and/or members of the ACLU

 

hmm...pretty sure the aclu ain't part of the governmetn, just a buncha private citizens dedicated to making the government due what it's supposed to, by the rules.

 

We're only Big and Scary if you drop a steamer on the Bill of Rights.

 

Surprisingly, it happens all the fuckin' time.

 

We love it when people cave in under threat of suit. Often, it just takes a friendly letter addressing our concerns and letting the party know that we're aware of the situation. Way, way cheaper and less risky. Hey, you can LOSE in court, ya know?

 

Common example: I had a student come up to me after a talk who asked what recourse he had with an administration that would not allow an LGBT club chapter to be established on campus. I gave him the number of our intake line, made a call to our intake person to let them know what was going on. He called, somebody in the state office wrote a polite letter asking a few question and BAM - there's an LGBT club on that campus now. No fighting. Who likes to fight?

 

And lets not forget those Evil Lobbyists. After all, wouldn't you want your legislature, most of whom are not even lawyers, nevermind civil rights lawyers, to write constitutionally questionable legislation, get it passed, then have to be sued after a whole bunch of people suffer for years, rather than have an expert lobbyist like our Shankar (Young Lawyer of the Year Award for WA, 2010) be able to review and suggest language that doesn't violate the state and federal constitutions? As any engineer knows, the longer you let a design flaw go unaddressed, the cheaper it will be to fix it, no?

 

In the real world, legislators often come to the ACLU, rather than the other way round, prior to dropping (introducing) legislation for a constitutional review beforehand. It's not an adversarial relationship.

 

Being a lobbyist is an incredibly difficult job that few are cut out for. You have to be ultra smart, and unflappable in dealing with a huge variety of nutjobs that wind up in the legislature. Our lobbyist had one legislator threaten to castrate him in the morning before asking him to join him for a motorcycle ride that afternoon. And you lose most of the time - campaigns for reform take years and sometimes decades before bearing real fruit. Steady progress and persistence is the key. I 502, for example, happened after a 14 year campaign to reform drug policy in WA.

 

Lobbying is a vital part of good government. Legislators often don't know their ass from a hole in the ground - having an expert at hand is a huge help in making better, more informed policy. Yup, corporate lobbying, that is, lobbying that is not for the overall public good, is an issue. Not all lobbyists work that way, however.

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[olyclimber]

LOL from Baden Powell wiki:

 

"Early discussion of Baden-Powell's sexuality focused on his relationship with his close friend Kenneth McLaren.[47]:217–218[48]:48 Tim Jeal's later biography discusses the relationship and finds that there is no conclusive evidence that this friendship was physical.[7]:82 Jeal then examines Baden-Powell's views on women, his appreciation of the male form, his military relationships, and his marriage, concluding that Baden-Powell might have been a repressed homosexual.[7]:103 Jeal's conclusion is shared by some biographers and disputed by others, but is not yet examined in any detail by other scholars.[49]:6"

[ivan]

LOL from Baden Powell wiki:

 

"Early discussion of Baden-Powell's sexuality focused on his relationship with his close friend Kenneth McLaren.[47]:217218[48]:48 Tim Jeal's later biography discusses the relationship and finds that there is no conclusive evidence that this friendship was physical.[7]:82 Jeal then examines Baden-Powell's views on women, his appreciation of the male form, his military relationships, and his marriage, concluding that Baden-Powell might have been a repressed homosexual.[7]:103 Jeal's conclusion is shared by some biographers and disputed by others, but is not yet examined in any detail by other scholars.[49]:6"

thus his deep fascination w/ early nazism, which was riddled w/ boy-buggers

[KaskadskyjKozak]

LOL from Baden Powell wiki:

 

"Early discussion of Baden-Powell's sexuality focused on his relationship with his close friend Kenneth McLaren.[47]:217218[48]:48 Tim Jeal's later biography discusses the relationship and finds that there is no conclusive evidence that this friendship was physical.[7]:82 Jeal then examines Baden-Powell's views on women, his appreciation of the male form, his military relationships, and his marriage, concluding that Baden-Powell might have been a repressed homosexual.[7]:103 Jeal's conclusion is shared by some biographers and disputed by others, but is not yet examined in any detail by other scholars.[49]:6"

thus his deep fascination w/ early nazism, which was riddled w/ boy-buggers

 

so clearly, knowing this horrific background, you reject the BSA and would rather nobody joins rather than adjust their participation req'ts to be more open, right?

 

 

[ivan]

 

so clearly, knowing this horrific background, you reject the BSA and would rather nobody joins rather than adjust their participation req'ts to be more open, right?

 

no, i think the organization, despite its historical and modern flaws, can adapt to fight the modern era and serve a very good purpose, and i hope that it does in fact become more open

 

to quote "red dawn," the bsa is "an elite para-military organization," and given that our national armed forces have embraced aethiests and boy-lovers of all stripes, i'm pretty sure the wussed-out version can too

Edited February 8, 2013 by ivan

[ivan]

but holy shit, don't know if it's the subject that summoned it, but why am i getting banner ads for: "Transvaginal Mesh Lawsuit!!!"

[ivan]

shee-it, i even chaperoned a girl scout trip the other weekedn - oddly, i was the only man, and odder still, i was the only adult present NOT chain-smoking

[tvashtarkatena]

LOL from Baden Powell wiki:

 

"Early discussion of Baden-Powell's sexuality focused on his relationship with his close friend Kenneth McLaren.[47]:217218[48]:48 Tim Jeal's later biography discusses the relationship and finds that there is no conclusive evidence that this friendship was physical.[7]:82 Jeal then examines Baden-Powell's views on women, his appreciation of the male form, his military relationships, and his marriage, concluding that Baden-Powell might have been a repressed homosexual.[7]:103 Jeal's conclusion is shared by some biographers and disputed by others, but is not yet examined in any detail by other scholars.[49]:6"

thus his deep fascination w/ early nazism, which was riddled w/ boy-buggers

 

so clearly, knowing this horrific background, you reject the BSA and would rather nobody joins rather than adjust their participation req'ts to be more open, right?

 

 

 

KKK trying to state one of Ivan's opinions for him is kind of like watching a dog trying to get a sandwich out of locked glove box. The machinery just aint there.

[pink]

i know what you mean, i tried to join the black panthers

 

When you were 7?

 

i was born in '71 strawberry shortcake...

[tvashtarkatena]

Um...they pretty much disbanded in 1980, so I guess you might have been all of 9.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[pink]

Um...they pretty much disbanded in 1980, so I guess you might have been all of 9.

 

 

dude, ur johnny on the fucking spot with your post. are you on house arrest or something?

[tvashtarkatena]

I probably should be.

 

Working on me website. Fkn boring, but its about time for an upgrade.

 

That, and I've had a chip implanted in your brain so I can monitor your thoughts.

 

So far - blue screen.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

so clearly, knowing this horrific background, you reject the BSA and would rather nobody joins rather than adjust their participation req'ts to be more open, right?

 

no, i think the organization, despite its historical and modern flaws, can adapt to fight the modern era and serve a very good purpose, and i hope that it does in fact become more open

 

to quote "red dawn," the bsa is "an elite para-military organization," and given that our national armed forces have embraced aethiests and boy-lovers of all stripes, i'm pretty sure the wussed-out version can too

 

As I suspect, you just want to fling shit their way to see what sticks so the argument can be "all this talk of moral standards is bogus, so drop the pretense and let in everyone"

 

I will agree that the BSA is a bit too quasi-military for my taste and some of the stuff they do seems kind of ghey in retrospect.

 

We did have a very nice camp owned by the local scouts up in the High Sierras. All in all I got to spend about 8 weeks up there over a few years, and it helped get me pretty hooked on the alpine environment.

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Neckerchiefs, shorts, knee socks, and sashes are ghey?

 

Kakester, you'r FB posts are all over my wall now. Should I friend you?

 

 

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[ivan]

 

As I suspect, you just want to fling shit their way to see what sticks so the argument can be "all this talk of moral standards is bogus, so drop the pretense and let in everyone"

 

i re-read this several times but can't quit grok it

 

i don't stay up at night worryign about what the bsa does b/c i see no place in it for me or my son particularily - that said, i do still have opinions and what the hell else is spray for?

 

i'm not one to set up shop as a moralist, shit, i'm pretty certain that, like most meat-popsicles, my morals are malleable to what the world demands

 

my gut-feeling though, call it a moral if you wish, is that folks shouldn't be discriminated against over thigns they have no choice in (kids don't choose their sexuality, and i think one's religious views are generally the result of a process beyond control too)

 

it's not like anyone's bitchign about the scouts not taking in pederasts and felons - they're out of touch w/ the modern world, and as pat says, they can adapt or not - i hope they do, but i'm not gonna cry if they don't, and will not hide my joy when they met their just demise as a result

[tvashtarkatena]

I'd be pretty sad for all those kids like me who REAAAAALLLLY need to get out of the house and have a little fun to boot. I didn't have too many alternatives - Scouting was an "acceptable" activity cuz it was run by our local parrish - and 4H sucks (fur and poo - got my own, thanks) ,despite having probably the highest serious injury rate of any troupe in BSA history. Broken hips, ribs, arms (me), wrists, teeth (me again)...sheeeit, a parent couldn't afford just the insurance and lawyers it would take to keep a kid in Troop 114 for a single accident season these days.

 

We were all rockin' the Vietnam gear, though. Trenching tools, jungle hats. How many of ya'll hiked with anti-bungi spike insoles?

 

Kids these days.

 

We drank water out of the creek, cooked over fires, and slept on piles of dry grass for pads. Being a Catholic troop, half the kids were borderline retards and the other half bound for prison. The first time I didn't get lost was when i finally decided to hike outside an official Scout outing and do my own navigation. Good times, fo sho.

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Oh, and who can forget the woodsman's pal:

 

poison fucking oak.

[tvashtarkatena]

It should also be noted that the open ghey policy proposed applies on a troop by troop basis - so nobody's 'cultural sensitivities' would even be violated. Strictly voluntary, troop by troop. The Kristians and Moms are just pissed because some troop, somewhere, is gonna have a gay kid.

 

Assholes.

[rob]

I wonder why any time anyone ever tries to enact social progress, Republicans insist on calling it "social engineering". It's almost like they don't want anything to ever change. How… Conservative.

[rob]

It's been that way for decades! Why change anything? Just keep your head down in your mouth closed, boy.

 

LOL!

[pink]

I wonder why any time anyone ever tries to enact social progress, Republicans insist on calling it "social engineering". It's almost like they don't want anything to ever change. How… Conservative.

 

that is not how all conservatives are!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I wonder why any time anyone ever tries to enact social progress,

 

"progress" LOLZ

[ivan]

I wonder why any time anyone ever tries to enact social progress, Republicans insist on calling it "social engineering". It's almost like they don't want anything to ever change. How… Conservative.

the irony of the party of lincoln disapproving of "social engineering" is palpable as well

 

course, if there's anything fundamentalists have a problem w/, it's irony - they seem born to take words literally