And I bet you thought Twight was dead.....

[glassgowkiss]

The point is that Chinese don't give a shit about most of things- environmental impact is very low on their priority list. So while the expeditions to Everest generate some revenue for the local population, they also will destroy the area for sure. The entire North side of the mountain is becoming covered with old ropes, old, torn tents, empty O2 tanks, slopes covered with feces and urine stains. And self regulation never really works either.

Saying that these expedition have ANY positive impact is utter bullshit at it's best. They offer zero real experience, they offer zero sport value and they just leave wreckage all over the place. But hey, you can justify anything if you spin it fast enough, remember WMD?

[tvashtarkatena]

Local populations are capable of taking environmental stewardship on, no? They have the most to gain or lose, and they hang out there anyway. Sirdars have a lot of money and influence in the area. They've already done a fair bit to help clean Everest up in partnership with others. They know the environment.

[wetslide]

Interesting you should mention that as I am doing my masters in that topic Tvash.

You are correct, the best modern environmental justice movements are grassroots campaigns organized by the locals.

[tvashtarkatena]

It's an interesting topic that illustrates the general decentralization brought about by better communication and deeper experience.

[glassgowkiss]

Both of you are so knowledgeable- have you spent any time in a communist country? This term "decentralization" is not in a vocabulary of the system. Who makes the decision, are the different levels of polit-bureau. Officially in China everyone works only 40 hour week.... go figure. Local population can try to minimize the impact. And particularly in China, the only "local movement" will be within the boundaries established by polit-bureau.

[rob]

How much time have you spent in china, GGK?

[glassgowkiss]

How much time have you spent in china, GGK?

Well, at least I have 21 years behind an Iron Curtain, while growing up in a communist country. There might be technical differences, how each of the countries will implement the system, but in a nutshell- these are just technical issues. And the point I am making there is no such term as "decentralization", as the system revolves around a small group making policy. Any "grassroots" "decentralization" is treated as an attempt to decrease the ruling power. Climbers might want to be blind to political facts and tend to ignore them, however in China- the politics and climbing are tied together. As the matter of fact- I refuse to give China my money, and visit- what is an illegally occupied territory.

[ivan]

haven't china (and russia, for that matter) alwasy been totalitarian states (albeit the modern ones taking advantage of ever more useful technologies towards that end)?

 

i think you're agreeing w/ pat here anyway, ggk - "grass roots" solutions are the death-knell of autocrats, as you say since they detract from the party's death-lock on the body politic, and thus grassroot-approaches are to be encouraged, in cleaning up literal trash as much as the political kind.

[glassgowkiss]

haven't china (and russia, for that matter) alwasy been totalitarian states (albeit the modern ones taking advantage of ever more useful technologies towards that end)?

 

i think you're agreeing w/ pat here anyway, ggk - "grass roots" solutions are the death-knell of autocrats, as you say since they detract from the party's death-lock on the body politic, and thus grassroot-approaches are to be encouraged, in cleaning up literal trash as much as the political kind.

I agree with most of your statement, but the crux of the biscuit is how it is implemented. That is my precise dislike of the expedition industry, as most of these companies don't really give a shit. Instead on using their economic leverage, they just rake profit, and leave the places trashed. I'll give you 2 examples: earthquake in Pakistan and teaching Sherpas basic skills- in both cases expedition industry did not really lift the finger. Hence my stance: the only thing they do support is- their bottom line. And participating in this circle jerk should be avoided- Thanks Mark for pointing it out!.

[ivan]

the only guide i can get behind is sweet, sweet mary-jane

[wfinley]

I am sure Chinese really worry about environmental impact.

Tvash was actually referring to the Nepalese government. Revenue from mountaineering and tourism in the Annapurna and Everest regions has improved the quality of life for the people in those regions. Electricity, schools and medical centers exist becuase the the money from trekkers and mountaineers. Sure there is wealth discrepancy and environmental impacts (deforestation / garbage etc.) but those issues exist in all third world countries. At least the people in heavily visited areas of Nepal are aware that environmental issues directly impact tourism in their regions.

[ivan]

china has also long held the notion, theoretical at best perhaps, but still there for any generation to seize upon, that the emperor, whatever form he chooses to take or title to claim, must obey the mandate of heaven - americans didn't give a shit about the dust bowl disaster until the super-duper-duper versions of the storm started raining soot upon the cities of the east - it sounds like china's eastern cities have recently begun to experience something not unlike this, and the party will be forced, at its own peril, to improve the situation, a solution which perhaps could extend as far as tibetan basecamps?

Edited March 2, 2013 by ivan

[glassgowkiss]

I am sure Chinese really worry about environmental impact.

Tvash was actually referring to the Nepalese government. Revenue from mountaineering and tourism in the Annapurna and Everest regions has improved the quality of life for the people in those regions. Electricity, schools and medical centers exist becuase the the money from trekkers and mountaineers. Sure there is wealth discrepancy and environmental impacts (deforestation / garbage etc.) but those issues exist in all third world countries. At least the people in heavily visited areas of Nepal are aware that environmental issues directly impact tourism in their regions.

You can't compare China and Nepal, period. And I think agencies and guide services organizing trips to Everest hardly contribute to the local economy above what they absolutely have to. How much of the 50K these companies are charging gullible fools is really left in Nepal? I am not talking about small expeditions or trackers, but organized trips to Everest. In general I hold these companies at the same level as oil industry.

[el jefe]

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-cheaters-have-done-to-us.html

 

Add to that list Diamox for clients, guides and the idoits on Rainier.

 

Did it myself on occasion bitd but agreed with Twight on this and would take the label of cheater even further now obviously.

 

dane, that tiresome bullshit hardly constitutes proof that twight is still alive. quite the contrary, it probably serves as definitive proof that he never really existed in the first place...

[glassgowkiss]

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-cheaters-have-done-to-us.html

 

Add to that list Diamox for clients, guides and the idoits on Rainier.

 

Did it myself on occasion bitd but agreed with Twight on this and would take the label of cheater even further now obviously.

 

dane, that tiresome bullshit hardly constitutes proof that twight is still alive. quite the contrary, it probably serves as definitive proof that he never really existed in the first place...

oh he is alive and well off now. http://www.gymjones.com

Edited March 2, 2013 by glassgowkiss

[wfinley]

FYI -- there's an interesting article in Outside about the use of Dex at high altitude:

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Climbings-Little-Helper.html

[Blake]

1. It's impossible to cheat (ie commit a proscribed action) in an activity that lacks rules. So of course these climbers aren't "cheating".

 

2. Twight says these people need to be "exposed and opposed" but never hints at how such opposition should be manifested.This is something your average 7th-grade English would have never let slide.

 

Can Honnold "oppose" all the "cheaters" who have climbed Moonlight Buttress with gear and harnesses? If you take 2 summers to through-hike the PCT instead of just 1, did you not actually hike it? Does it make you a cheater because others have done it in a more athletically impressive style?

 

Just don't lie about what you accomplished and don't get your boxers in a bunch about the rules others impose upon themselves.

[Alan Trick]

Next in: "And I bet you thought the Mark Twight thread was dead".