Gun Control

[rob]

"Why liberals should love the Second Amendment"

 

Liberals love the Constitution. Ask anyone on the street. They'll tell you the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is a liberal organization. During the dark days of the Bush Administration, membership doubled because so many Americans feared increasing restrictions on their civil liberties. If you were to ask liberals to list their top five complaints about the Bush Administration, and they would invariably say the words "shredding" and "Constitution" in the same sentence. They might also add "Fourth Amendment" and "due process." It's possible they'll talk about "free speech zones" and "habeus corpus."

 

There's a good chance they will mention, probably in combination with several FCC-prohibited adjectives, former Attorney Generals John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzales.

 

And while liberals certainly do not argue for lawlessness, and will acknowledge the necessity of certain restrictions, it is generally understood that liberals fight to broadly interpret and expand our rights and to question the necessity and wisdom of any restrictions of them.

 

Liberals can quote legal precedent, news reports, and exhaustive studies. They can talk about the intentions of the Founders. They can argue at length against the tyranny of the government. And they will, almost without exception, conclude the necessity of respecting, and not restricting, civil liberties.

 

Except for one: the right to keep and bear arms.

 

When it comes to discussing the Second Amendment, liberals check rational thought at the door. They dismiss approximately 40% of American households that own one or more guns, and those who fight to protect the Second Amendment, as "gun nuts." They argue for greater restrictions. And they pursue these policies at the risk of alienating voters who might otherwise vote for Democrats.

 

And they do so in a way that is wholly inconsistent with their approach to all of our other civil liberties.

 

Those who fight against Second Amendment rights cite statistics about gun violence, as if such numbers are evidence enough that our rights should be restricted. But Chicago and Washington DC, the two cities from which came the most recent Supreme Court decisions on Second Amendment rights, had some of the most restrictive laws in the nation, and also some of the highest rates of violent crime. Clearly, such restrictions do not correlate with preventing crime.

 

So rather than continuing to fight for greater restrictions on Second Amendment rights, it is time for liberals to defend Second Amendment rights as vigorously as they fight to protect all of our other rights. Because it is by fighting to protect each right that we protect all rights.

 

And this is why:

 

(Reasons below the fold)

 

No. 1: The Bill of Rights protects individual rights.

 

If you've read the Bill of Rights -- and who among us hasn't? -- you will notice a phrase that appears in nearly all of them: "the people."

 

First Amendment:

 

...the right of the people peaceably to assemble

 

Second Amendment:

 

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

Fourth Amendment:

 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects...

 

Ninth Amendment:

 

...shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

 

Tenth Amendment:

 

...are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

 

Certainly, no good liberal would argue that any of these rights are collective rights, and not individual rights. We believe that the First Amendment is an individual right to criticize our government.

 

We would not condone a state-regulated news organization. We certainly would not condone state regulation of religion. We talk about "separation of church and state," although there is no mention of "separation of church and state" in the First Amendment.

 

But we know what they meant. The anti-Federalists refused to ratify the Constitution without a Bill of Rights; they intended for our rights to be interpreted expansively.

 

We believe the Founders intended for us to be able to say damn near anything we want, protest damn near anything we want, print damn near anything we want, and believe damn near anything we want. Individually, without the interference or regulation of government.

 

And yet, despite the recent Heller and McDonald decisions, liberals stumble at the idea of the Second Amendment as an individual right. They take the position that the Founders intended an entirely different meaning by the phrase "the right of the people" in the Second Amendment, even though they are so positively clear about what that phrase means in the First Amendment.

 

If we can agree that the First Amendment protects not only powerful organizations such as the New York Times or MSNBC, but also the individual commenter on the internet, the individual at the anti-war rally, the individual driving the car with the "Fuck Bush" bumper sticker, can we not also agree that the Second Amendment's use of "the people" has the same meaning?

 

But it's different! The Second Amendment is talking about the militia! If you want to "bear arms," join the National Guard!

 

Right?

 

Wrong.

 

The United States Militia Code:

 

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

 

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

 

Aside from the fact that the National Guard did not exist in the 1700s, the term "militia" does not mean "National Guard," even today. The code clearly states that two classes comprise the militia: the National Guard and Naval Militia, and everyone else.

 

Everyone else. Individuals. The People.

 

The Founders well understood that the militia is the people, for it was not only the right but the obligation of all citizens to protect and preserve their liberty and to defend themselves from the tyranny of the government.

 

And fighting against the tyranny of the government is certainly a liberal value.

 

No. 2: We oppose restrictions to our civil liberties.

 

All of our rights, even the ones enumerated in the Bill of Rights, are restricted. You can't shout "Fire!" in a crowd. You can't threaten to kill the president. You can't publish someone else's words as your own. We have copyright laws and libel laws and slander laws. We have the FCC to regulate our radio and television content. We have plenty of restrictions on our First Amendment rights.

 

But we don't like them. We fight them. Any card-carrying member of the ACLU will tell you that while we might agree that certain restrictions are reasonable, we keep a close eye whenever anyone in government gets an itch to pass a new law that restricts our First Amendment rights. Or our Fourth. Or our Fifth, Sixth, or Eighth.

 

We complain about free speech zones. The whole country is supposed to be a free speech zone, after all. It says so right in the First Amendment.

 

But when it comes further restrictions on the manufacture, sale, or possession of firearms, liberals are not even silent; they are vociferously in favor of such restrictions.

 

Suddenly, overly broad restrictions are "reasonable." The Chicago and Washington D.C. bans on handguns -- all handguns -- is reasonable, even though the Supreme Court has now said otherwise.

 

Would we tolerate such a sweeping regulation of, say, the Thirteenth Amendment?

 

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

 

What if a member of Congress -- say, a Republican from a red state in the south -- were to introduce a bill that permits enslaving black women? Would we consider that reasonable? It's not like the law would enslave all people, or even all black people. Just the women. There's no mention of enslaving women in the Thirteenth Amendment. Clearly, when Lincoln wanted to free the slaves, he didn't intend to free all the slaves. And we restrict all the other Amendments, so obviously the Thirteenth Amendment is not supposed to be absolute. What's the big deal?

 

Except that such an argument is ridiculous, of course. Liberals would take to the streets, send angry letters to their representatives in Washington, organize marches, call progressive radio programs to quote, verbatim, the Thirteenth Amendment. Quite bluntly, although not literally, liberals would be up in arms.

 

And yet...A ban on all handguns seems reasonable to many liberals. Never mind that of 192 million firearms in America, 65 million -- about one third -- are handguns.

 

Such a narrow interpretation of this particular right is inconsistent with the otherwise broad interpretation of the Bill of Rights. And just as conservatives weaken their own arguments about protecting the Second Amendment when they will not fight as vigilantly for protecting all the others, so too do liberals weaken their arguments for civil liberties, when they pick and choose which civil liberties they deem worthy of defense.

 

No. 3: It doesn't matter that it's not 1776 anymore.

 

When the Founders drafted the Bill of Rights, they could not have imagined machine guns. Or armor-piercing bullets (which are not available to the public anyway, and are actually less lethal than conventional ammunition). Or handguns that hold 18 rounds. A drive-by shooting, back in 1776, would have been a guy on a horse with a musket.

 

Of course, they couldn't have imagined the internet, either. Or 24-hour cable news networks. Or talk radio. When they drafted the First Amendment, did they really mean to protect the rights of Bill O'Reilly to make incredibly stupid, and frequently inaccurate, statements for an entire hour, five nights a week?

 

Actually, yes. They did. Bill O'Reilly bilious ravings, and Keith Olbermann's Special Comments, and the insipid chatter of the entire cast of the Today show are, and were intended to be, protected by the First Amendment.

 

Liberals are supposed to understand that just because we don't agree with something doesn't mean it is not protected. At least when it comes to the First Amendment. And one's personal dislike of guns should be no better a reason for fighting against the Second Amendment than should one's personal dislike of Bill O'Reilly justify fighting against the First Amendment.

 

And yet, when discussing the Second Amendment, liberals become obtuse in their literalism. The Second Amendment does not protect the right to own all guns. Or all ammunition. It doesn't protect the right of the people as individuals.

 

Liberals will defend the right of Cindy Sheehan to wear an anti-war T-shirt, even though the First Amendment says nothing about T-shirts.

 

They will defend the rights of alleged terrorists to a public trial, even though the Founders certainly could not have imagined a world in which terrorists would plot to blow up building with airplanes.

 

But we do not quibble about the methods by which we practice our First Amendment rights because methodology is not the point. Red herring arguments about types of ammunition or magazine capacity or handguns versus rifles are just that -- red herrings. They distract us from the underlying purpose of that right -- to ensure a free society that can hold its government accountable. The Second Amendment is no more about guns than the First Amendment is about quill pens.

 

No. 4: It doesn't matter if you can use it.

 

Fine, you say. Have your big, scary guns. It's not like you actually stand a chance in fighting against the United States government. The Army has bigger, badder weapons than any private citizen. Your most deadly gun is no match for their tanks, their helicopters, their atom bombs. Maybe two hundred years ago, citizens stood a chance in a fight against government, but not today. The Second Amendment is obsolete.

 

Tell that to the Iraqi "insurgents" who are putting up a pretty good fight against our military might with fairly primitive weapons.

 

The Second Amendment is obsolete?

 

What other rights might be considered obsolete in today's day and age?

 

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

 

When was the last time a soldier showed up at your door and said, "I'll be staying with you for the indefinite future"?

 

It's probably been a while. But of course, were it to happen, you'd dust off your Third Amendment and say, "I don't think so, pal."

 

And you'd be right.

 

What about the Twenty-Sixth Amendment? How much use does that get?

 

The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.

 

We all know the youth vote is typically pretty abysmal. Those lazy kids can barely get out of bed before noon, let alone get themselves to the voting booth. If they're not going to use their Twenty-Sixth Amendment rights, shouldn't we just delete the damn thing altogether?

 

Hell no. And this is why liberals work so hard to get out and rock the vote -- to encourage citizens to exercise their rights. That is our obligation as citizens, to protect against the government infringing upon our rights by making full use of them.

 

And yet, when it comes to the Second Amendment, liberals do not fight to protect that right. Instead them demand more laws. Regulate, regulate, regulate -- until the Second Amendment is nearly regulated out of existence because no one needs to have a gun anyway.

 

And that, sadly, is the biggest mistake of all.

 

No. 5: The Second Amendment is about revolution.

 

In no other country, at no other time, has such a right existed. It is not the right to hunt. It is not the right to shoot at soda cans in an empty field. It is not even the right to shoot at a home invader in the middle of the night.

 

It is the right of revolution.

 

Let me say that again: It is the right of revolution.

 

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government.

 

To alter or abolish the government. These are not mild words; they are powerful. They are revolutionary.

 

The Founders might never have imagined automatic weapons. But they probably also never imagined a total ban on handguns either.

 

We talk about the First Amendment as a unique and revolutionary concept -- that we have the right to criticize our government. Does it matter whether we do so while standing on a soapbox on the corner of the street or on a blog? No. Because the concept, not the methodology, is what matters.

 

And the Second Amendment is no different. It is not about how much ammunition is "excessive" or what types of guns are and are not permissible. Liberals cling to such minutia at the expense of understanding and appreciating the larger concept that underlies this right.

 

So.

 

What is the point? Is this a rallying cry for liberals to rush right out and purchase a gun? Absolutely not. Guns are dangerous when used by people who are not trained to use them, just as cars are dangerous when driven by people who have not been taught how to drive.

 

No, this is a rallying cry for the Bill of Rights -- for all of our rights.

 

This is an appeal to every liberal who says, "I just don't like guns."

 

This is an appeal to every liberal who says, "No one needs that much ammunition."

 

This is an appeal to every liberal who says, "That's not what the Founders meant."

 

This is an appeal to every liberal who supports the ACLU.

 

This is an appeal to every liberal who has complained about the Bush Administration's trading of our civil liberties for the illusion of greater security. (I believe I’ve seen a T-shirt or two about Benjamin Franklin’s thoughts on that.)

 

This is an appeal to every liberal who believes in fighting against the abuses of government, against the infringement of our civil liberties, and for the greater expansion of our rights.

 

This is an appeal to every liberal who never wants to lose another election to Republicans because they have successfully persuaded the voters that Democrats will not protect their Second Amendment rights.

 

This is an appeal to liberals, not merely to tolerate the Second Amendment, but to embrace it. To love it and defend it and guard it as carefully as you do all the others.

 

Because we are liberals. And fighting for our rights -- for all of our rights, for all people -- is what we do.

 

Because we are revolutionaries."

 

by Kaili Joy GrayFollow for Daily Kos

 

From http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/04/881431/-Why-liberals-should-love-the-Second-Amendment

 

I don't know any liberals that hate the second amendment, although I suppose they exist.

[ivan]

I don't know any liberals that hate the second amendment, although I suppose they exist.

X2 - seems a conservative talking-point that we do in fact hate the 2nd - libturds don't just hold every other damn right hostage to it nor think it can't suffer any sort of restrictions w/o the whole republic crashing down upon our ears...

 

fuck-sakes, bill maher is packing!

[tvashtarkatena]

Packing a bowl, maybe.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

actually, no one I know considers the ACLU a liberal organization, except in the classical sense of a liberal democracy, which is what the founders intended from day 1. By any modern definition it's a conservative organization that strives to hold the government accountable to the Bill of Rights, which isn't exactly anything new, novel, or radical. Now, there is a new definition of conservatism that is actually a code word for religious fundamentalism, which is about as radical a departure from our constitution as you can get. These 'conservatives' are against gay marriage, and therefore the Equal Protection Clause. Very radical, and a violation of the Separation of Church and State, also very radical.

 

The only thing novel about the birth of America is that it was the first secular, government in modern times without royalty. That was pretty much the whole point of the project. The rest had all been done before.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Regarding the 2nd Amendment, constitutional scholars pretty much agree on one thing: it is the most poorly written Amendment. They may have outsourced its authorship to some retarded inebriate to cut costs, in any case, it's been the idiot bastard child of the Bill of Rights ever since.

 

One thing our own history teaches us is that lots and lots of guns leads to lots and lots of shootings - not exactly good for Promoting the General Welfare - one of the Constitution's primary aims. So the government has broad powers to regulate fire arms as it sees fit. Banning certain weapons, background checks, waiting periods, licensing, weapons tracking, heavy taxation of weapons - none even come close to a 2nd Amendment challenge. But conservatives are bouyed by bullshit, their moniker isn't even real, so any attempt at proper regulation to fulfill the Constitutions highest purpose is framed as an attempt to end freedom as we know it.

 

The idea that guns protect us, of course, isn't supported by the data. Mostly, guns get us in trouble and put us in danger. WWII was a rare and notable exception, although we weren't really directly threatened by invasion by any of the Axis powers. It was in our best interests to kick fascism as a competing system in the nuts.

 

Most of the democracies created in this century did not involve violence. Tunisia's non violent revolution provides a stark contrast to Syria's no holds bar bloodbath. Its a way better formula. Civil wars leave deep scars that produce conflict for centuries afterwards. They tear societies apart. Peaceful revolutions do not. And peaceful revolutions work. Not every time - but more often than violent revolutions. They produce a more stable society and fewer reasons for a round two.

 

Our freedoms are protected by our behavior towards each other and the land, and by the actions of our institutions and associations, and our rule of law. The military is really very small, and usually unnecessary, part of that protection. More often a large offensive military like ours causes a significant erosion of human rights. Torture, atrocities, occupation, collateral damage, surveillance, the draft, the militarization of our police...the list is long.

Edited January 25, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[Pete_H]

I don't begrudge those who advocate for gun rights. I own a few guns myself and access to guns withough much regulation to speak of is a privilege Americans have enjoyed for some time. I think the vast majority of gun and assault weapon owners are law-abiding good people. Its unfortunate they have to possibly endure giving up their privelege because of the actions of the few bad apples. That said, as a society I think we need to decide whether we want to regulate more in exchange for fewer massacres and gun violence.

[Pete_H]

However, I do know that when the zombie apocolypse comes, I'll be packin.

[rob]

Its unfortunate they have to possibly endure giving up their privelege because of the actions of the few bad apples.

 

The only privilege law-abiding citizens are at risk of losing right now is the right to buy guns without a background check and (possibly) the right to buy (brand-new) assault rifles. Doesn't seem too bad, to me. And I'm a gun owner, too. In my younger days, I was even an NRA member!

[Pete_H]

Don't forget no federal gun ownership registry. The gun lobby (NRA) has stoked the Kevbone-esque conspiracy fire on that one.

[rob]

Don't forget no federal gun ownership registry. The gun lobby (NRA) has stoked the Kevbone-esque conspiracy fire on that one.

 

yeah, good point

 

It's weird the NRA is fighting the ONE THING that would really prevent the illegal sale of firearms.

[yellowlab03]

yeah, good point

 

It's weird the NRA is fighting the ONE THING that would really prevent the illegal sale of firearms.

 

I really doubt that it would prevent anything illegal. All it would do is prevent you from selling me a gun without me having a background check. bad guys are going to get guns one way or the other.

 

The only time a background check isn't done is when someone does a face to face purchase. I've bought guns in CA, WA, VA and in GA some at shops and some at gun shows, and have had to do a NICS check each and every time.

[dougd]

Here is a revolver.

It has an amazing language all its own.

It delivers unmistakable ultimatums.

It is the last word.

A simple, little human forefinger can tell a terrible story with it.

Hunger, fear, revenge, robbery hide behind it.

It is the claw of the jungle made quick and powerful.

It is the club of the savage turned to magnificent precision.

It is more rapid than any judge or court of law.

It is less subtle and treacherous than any one lawyer or ten.

When it has spoken, the case can not be appealed to the supreme court, nor any mandamus nor any injunction nor any stay of execution come in and interfere with the original purpose.

And nothing in human philosophy persists more strangely than the old belief that God is always on the side of those who have the most revolvers.

[rob]

yeah, good point

 

It's weird the NRA is fighting the ONE THING that would really prevent the illegal sale of firearms.

 

I really doubt that it would prevent anything illegal. All it would do is prevent you from selling me a gun without me having a background check. bad guys are going to get guns one way or the other.

 

Ah, it's the "there is nothing we can do they will get them anyway so let's not bother trying" argument. Derp.

 

We keep 14 yo kids from buying cars and we keep nearly everyone from buying thompson submachine guns and hand grenades, you think we can't keep criminals from buying handguns? Just institute a full record of ownership, like a car title, with transfer of ownership, and make people renew their registration every few years to prove they still have the gun. Spain does this.

 

Sure, a criminal might get a gun illegally, but we'll know who sold it to him by tracing the serial number or by catching the guy who can no longer prove he has his registered weapon in possession. Every sale and transfer of title must be recorded -- just like a car. When was the last time you ever bought a car on the black market? Exactly.

 

LOTS of countries prevent illegal gun sales using this method. I don't know why some americans are convinced it will never work, especially since we've never tried, and especially since we have successfully restricted and regulated so many things.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

We keep 14 yo kids from buying cars and we keep nearly everyone from buying thompson submachine guns and hand grenades, you think we can't keep criminals from buying handguns? Just institute a full record of ownership, like a car title, with transfer of ownership, and make people renew their registration every few years to prove they still have the gun.

 

And in addition set up extremely harsh penalties for possessing a gun illegally and using one in a crime. For a felony, say, life in prison with no possibility of parole, ever.

 

[Pete_H]

 

yeah, good point

 

It's weird the NRA is fighting the ONE THING that would really prevent the illegal sale of firearms.

 

I really doubt that it would prevent anything illegal. All it would do is prevent you from selling me a gun without me having a background check. bad guys are going to get guns one way or the other.

 

The only time a background check isn't done is when someone does a face to face purchase. I've bought guns in CA, WA, VA and in GA some at shops and some at gun shows, and have had to do a NICS check each and every time.

Apparently its a real handicap to law enforcement efforts ability to trace guns used in crimes back to the source; or to determine if a gun is being illegally possessed. I'm no expert but it seems we'd want to give ATF and whomeever else as many tools as possible.

 

If I had a machine gun though it would definitly be a Tommy gun. Great way to kill nazis.

[yellowlab03]

I bought my first truck when I was 15? No one stopped me.

 

I happen to know for a FACT that we can't keep criminals from buying guns. Do you honestly believe that criminals are only getting their guns buy buying them from people who legaly obtained them in the first place? I guess they are all getting their illegal prescription drugs from pharmacies too. Look at the '97 North Hollywood shoot out. Full auto weapons and body armor in CA, where that stuff is illegal at the state level, and it was during the middle of the original federal AWB.

[rob]

I bought my first truck when I was 15? No one stopped me.

 

I happen to know for a FACT that we can't keep criminals from buying guns. Do you honestly believe that criminals are only getting their guns buy buying them from people who legaly obtained them in the first place? I guess they are all getting their illegal prescription drugs from pharmacies too. Look at the '97 North Hollywood shoot out. Full auto weapons and body armor in CA, where that stuff is illegal at the state level, and it was during the middle of the original federal AWB.

 

shootouts with fully automatic weapons are rare, are you actually saying that the banning of automatic weapons was ineffective? Weird

 

Also, I don't know how old you are, but currently a 15 year-old cannot transfer a title to his name, which means he doesn't own it. This may vary state-by-state, but you must at least admit that it is very hard to own a car without actually owning the title and registration -- which is my point. You do not have a lot of black-market car ownership. Or, are you denying that, too?

 

Sigh, obviously your opinions are based on ideology, not reason. I can think of at least a dozen other things that have been successfully regulated. Can you?

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Sigh, obviously your opinions are based on ideology, not reason. I can think of at least a dozen other things that have been successfully regulated. Can you?

 

 

At least acknowledge that there would be a huge time lag between regulation and effective implementation. With so many guns out there now (unregistered) that would be the de facto status quo for quite some time. So, yes you could regulate, but there would be a period where this regulation would be ineffective.

[rob]

Sigh, obviously your opinions are based on ideology, not reason. I can think of at least a dozen other things that have been successfully regulated. Can you?

 

 

At least acknowledge that there would be a huge time lag between regulation and effective implementation. With so many guns out there now (unregistered) that would be the de facto status quo for quite some time. So, yes you could regulate, but there would be a period where this regulation would be ineffective.

 

sure, of course. All the more reason to get started! Also, we should consider regulation of ammunition.

 

I suggest that to buy ammunition, you have to present a gun registration. This will force unregistered guns to become registered.

[rob]

I should run for congress.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Sigh, obviously your opinions are based on ideology, not reason. I can think of at least a dozen other things that have been successfully regulated. Can you?

 

 

At least acknowledge that there would be a huge time lag between regulation and effective implementation. With so many guns out there now (unregistered) that would be the de facto status quo for quite some time. So, yes you could regulate, but there would be a period where this regulation would be ineffective.

 

sure, of course. All the more reason to get started! Also, we should consider regulation of ammunition.

 

I suggest that to buy ammunition, you have to present a gun license. This will force unregistered guns to become registered.

 

Good. And I would suggest that this is why you get a lot of the "it will not work" argument. It is true that it will not work immediately, ... and Americans really demand instant gratification in all things...

[rob]

neat

 

I just downloaded his essay, I can't wait to get home to my reading chair with a glass of Stranahan's to digest it.

[ivan]

guns mean what they say.

[Pete_H]

Do you honestly believe that criminals are only getting their guns buy buying them from people who legaly obtained them in the first place?

 

Who knows since there's no gun registry to provide the data

[tvashtarkatena]

Any comprehensive legislation typically has a several year timeline for implementation and more for the effect to show up in a big way. Gotta give all the stakeholders involved time to become education and comply. America needs a cultural change in its mentality towards guns (and religion, and...) and that's probably going to take a generation or more. A lot of Americans understand that, particularly in our state. Pretty standard. It'll happen.