Gun Control

[tvashtarkatena]

Dear Old Dad gave me a Cold Commander after the Rodney King riots. They were 800 miles away from him, but he somehow convinced himself that the Great Unwashed were about to invade our small, peaceful little wine town and grab all our Garlic Jack and White Zinfandel without paying. He was pushing Home Protection on all his sons. My little bro simply said 'fuck that', my big bro already had a bunch of rusty guns he never used, and so it fell to me.

 

I shot the 100 rounds that came with it with some buddies, got pretty boring by the end of the box, then sold it through Butch's cuz my young nephews were due for a visit from Japan and I knew the stats about shooting accidents and kids. I couldn't see myself going through a whole bunch of hassle and expense securing a weapon I had no use for and really never wanted in the first place.

 

For me, one use for a gun would be to make through holes through mild steel. A 9mm will penetrate up to 3/8" steel plate quite nicely, although the splaying requires a bit of boring and grinding afterwards to bring up to 3/8" dia - a size I use a lot. May be able to I'm thinking of a shooting booth lined with thicker steel plate which might double as a sand blasting booth.

 

My neighbors may not think much of the idea, however. Maybe I can blackmail them into buying me a new drill press and some new carbide bits.

Edited January 26, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[yellowlab03]

 

Sigh, obviously your opinions are based on ideology, not reason.

 

 

You can not be serious right? No really? In the other post I posted up the FBI crime FACTS showing that since the sunset of the '94 AWB violent crime rates, homicide rates and gun crime rates have gone down. If anyone's opinions are based on emotions, ideology and not reason, it is the anti-guns crowd begging for a ban on scary lookin' black gunz.

 

In case you missed the other post:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

Note that "assault weapons" IE: AR-15 style firearms are considered rifles. If ya'll were serious about saving people you would be going after handguns.

[rob]

 

Sigh, obviously your opinions are based on ideology, not reason.

 

 

You can not be serious right? No really? In the other post I posted up the FBI crime FACTS showing that since the sunset of the '94 AWB violent crime rates, homicide rates and gun crime rates have gone down. If anyone's opinions are based on emotions, ideology and not reason, it is the anti-guns crowd begging for a ban on scary lookin' black gunz.

 

In case you missed the other post:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

Note that "assault weapons" IE: AR-15 style firearms are considered rifles. If ya'll were serious about saving people you would be going after handguns.

 

blah blah blah.

 

I think if anyone was serious about saving people, they'd devise a way to track and enforce (all) gun sales properly. If you want to pigeon-hole on this assault rifle thing, be my guest, but I find that conversation less interesting than discussing real ways to track gun sales.

 

Banning assault rifles and not instituting a proper ownership and title-transfer system for guns will be much less effective since, as you say, most people are killed by handguns.

 

Does that mean, though, that just because most people are killed by handguns that we should let ANY type of gun be legal? Very few people are killed by M60's, and they should still be illegal. Very few people are killed by hand-grenades, but they should still be legal. Why not assault rifles?

 

Of course, the point of outlawing assault rifles isn't to reduce handgun deaths. The point of outlawing assault rifles is simply to outlaw assault rifles, on account of their potential for mayhem (the same reason M60's are mostly illegal btw). The real change will come with a proper gun registry, outlined as I described. But you sure are attached heavily to this assault rifle thing, aren't you? Like a dog with a bone.

 

(BTW I doubt a proper gun register outlined as I described will happen anytime soon. I'm sure the NRA will find a way to make it ineffective, as they have done for the last few decades)

 

 

[rob]

of course, after making the new laws basically impossible to enforce by limiting the ability of the federal government to actually enforce them, the NRA will then complain that existing laws aren't being enforced and that's why we don't need new ones.

 

what a bunch of fuck knuckles.

[yellowlab03]

I like the blah blah blah comment. I present you with facts and what do you have to say? Blah blah blah. Nice. I'm attached to it because you libs are so tied up over it. I'm attached to it because I don't live in a vacuum where if we get rid of all the guns all the bad people will be nice. I'm attached to it because it is a right guaranteed to us in the 2nd amendment.

 

Listen dude. I don't know you from Adam, I don't know if you have ever even fired a gun or grown up around them or what. I personally have grown up around them, I collect them, I use them at work. I have a healthy respect for them and I know what they can do and what they are capable of, I've seen it first hand. The only thing that makes a gun bad is the person using it. I don't have my guns locked in a safe because I am worried about them running away and raping and pillaging the country side. I have them locked up because I don't want tweakers stealing them.

 

You want a national registry of guns, but I will bet that you are against having to have a national ID card in order to vote.

 

And by the way, Full-Auto (true assault weapons) are not illegal, neither are suppressors, short barreled rifles or shotguns, grenade launchers etc. Just heavily regulated to the point where it is just a PITA to own. I just can't wait for my form 4 to get back so I can play with my outback II

[tvashtarkatena]

Crime's gone down for a number of reasons: Community policing, neighborhood watch, increased police funding and equipment, vastly improved 911, and, most of all, changes in demographics - America is aging.

 

Gun ownership has fuck all to do with it, of course. If bad people know you've got a lot of guns, they're more likely to TARGET your house to get 'em - it's simply a matter of waiting until you're not home. Pretty easy. The myth of 'deterrence' has made your life more dangerous. The first thing cops ask when you file a burglary report is "did you have any guns?" Besides cash and drugs, they are probably the most fungible item to steal. If everyone had guns, there would likely be a hell of a lot more burglaries to get at them. Can't shoot em when you're not home, and that's when burglaries happen in nearly all cases.

 

But guns nutz love to tell themselves that they're making us all safer. Just the opposite. They are magnets for crime, and a potential perp for an accidental shooting.

 

 

Its surprising to me that so many gun nuts, who seem so focused on protecting their home, seem unaware of this glaring and obvious hole in their logic. They focus more on the one in a million chance of a violent home invasion when you are home - the stuff of national headlines, but not the stuff of reality, really.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[rob]

I like the blah blah blah comment. I present you with facts and what do you have to say? Blah blah blah. Nice. I'm attached to it because you libs are so tied up over it. I'm attached to it because I don't live in a vacuum where if we get rid of all the guns all the bad people will be nice. I'm attached to it because it is a right guaranteed to us in the 2nd amendment.

 

So what is your suggestion to curb our gun violence? Arm everyone? BTW, I couldn't care less about banning assault rifles or not, I'm way more interested in my registry idea. I won't cry if they ban assault rifles but I will cry if they ban assault rifles and do nothing else. If you cannot even acknowledge that it is TOO EASY for criminals to get their hands on guns, then you're clearly disingenuous, or ignorant. Both? Hope not. What is your plan to make it harder for criminals to get guns?

 

Listen dude. I don't know you from Adam, I don't know if you have ever even fired a gun or grown up around them or what. I personally have grown up around them, I collect them, I use them at work. I have a healthy respect for them and I know what they can do and what they are capable of, I've seen it first hand. The only thing that makes a gun bad is the person using it. I don't have my guns locked in a safe because I am worried about them running away and raping and pillaging the country side. I have them locked up because I don't want tweakers stealing them.

 

Sounds good to me. Everyone should be like you (unfortunately, they're not). Nobody wants to take away your guns. They just want you to register them. (or, at least, I do.) Registering = proving you are one of the good guys. (BTW, I grew up with guns, currently own guns and was previously an NRA member. I'm selling them, though, want them? My pre-ban mini-14 with the folding stock already sold, though. Sorry! It was pretty sweet)

 

You want a national registry of guns, but I will bet that you are against having to have a national ID card in order to vote.

 

a laughable comparison. This is what makes me give you the blah-blah-blah statements. Does voting kill tens of thousands of americans a year? Are you also against car registration databases and driver licenses???? lolz. you get a "blah blah blah" for that statement, for sure.

 

And by the way, Full-Auto (true assault weapons) are not illegal, neither are suppressors, short barreled rifles or shotguns, grenade launchers etc. Just heavily regulated to the point where it is just a PITA to own. I just can't wait for my form 4 to get back so I can play with my outback II

 

I know, that's why I said MOSTLY illegal. The regulations around class III firearms are, imo, mostly a success and proof that gun regulation and restrictions CAN work. You're making my point for me, thanks!

[tvashtarkatena]

Yellowlabia, your testosterone emissions are giving me a semi. You need to take matters into your own hands sooner than later or your balls are going to explode.

[rob]

There are lots of things we have successfully prevented felons from doing. Buying guns, unfortunately, isn't one of them. Thanks, NRA!

[yellowlab03]

If gun registrations work so well, why did Canada scrap theirs?

 

Tvash, RGR... had a good day in the gym, still a little pumped Also, there is a hole in your logic that guns are a magnet for crime. If that were the case, then after 2004 crimes should have shot through the roof. The most popular firearm purchased since the AWB has been the AR style rifle. There are more AR's in civilian hands now than there ever has been. And your guy in the White House should be nominated for gun salesman of the century.

[yellowlab03]

Hey anyone want to go shooting this weekend, just picked up a little .22 revolver and a bulk pack of ammo. Going to teach the kiddos how to wreak havoc on cans and paper... Open invite for you city dwellers.

[rob]

If gun registrations work so well, why did Canada scrap theirs?

 

They actually only scrapped registration of long-guns, and it was scrapped after the conservative party gained a majority. Sound familiar?

 

Do you actually know anything about their gun registry? I do. The wikipedia article on it is pretty good, if you're interested in studying this stuff. It's also interesting to note that Toronto police estimated nearly half of the (unregistered) handguns used in crimes came from -- can you guess?? -- the United States.

 

We're totally awesome neighbors.

 

BTW, if you would like some info on countries that have successfully registered guns and how they did it, I would love to share that info with you. Canada's was pretty half-ass, as will ours be, I'm sure.

 

But, don't forget that Canada's gun homicide rate is quite a bit lower than ours, so obviously their gun control is not completely ineffective.

Edited January 26, 2013 by rob

[prole]

"I'm an irresponsible gun owner."

 

Boy, if I had a dime for every time I heard that one!

[tvashtarkatena]

The causes that correlate with crime rates are very complicated not entirely understood. It's just not that simple. No one policy is going to make the 'shoot up' or 'shoot down' all of a sudden.

 

Ask an experienced cop about the burglary thing. I just did last week, actually. Now cops themselves do tend to have guns at home, of course. Nobody in their right mind breaks into a cop's house - and usually everybody knows which house that is.

 

As a non-cop, you don't get that extra special aura of protection unless you, too, enjoy a personal army of highly trained revenge seekers backing you up.

[tvashtarkatena]

Gun sales have a lot to do with marketing - pretty much everything to do with marketing, and noone employs marketing's most powerful tool - paranoia (buy em before they ban em) like the NRA. In addition - wars tend to be great adverts for military style gear - witness the explosion of 'tac gear' - for hunting, for the range, but mostly for circle jerking. There are far fewer hunters than there were 20 years ago, yet sales in that industry have exploded to a 2.6 billion industry, thanks to 'I need to look badass' marketing. TV has been a great marketer, as well. How many blood sport shows are there now? In the early 90s, there were practically none.

 

FOX news has certainly been a factor in all this. Super popular - until now. Like the Teabagger idiocy, even that seems to have shot its wad.

 

Being a redneck also came into fashion, particularly when Bush was elected and it was deemed OK, even desireable, to be aggressive and stupid like the Prez. "Finally, someone to tell me that it was OK to be drunk all through high school"

 

Fortunately, this embarrassing cultural canker that is the new conservative movement seems to be healing up, albeit slowly, and good old fashion stewardship, creative rather than destructive energy, and the value of education over proud, willful ignorance seem to be returning.

 

Welcome to the new world of the innernutz, where a great percentage of the population can sniff out bullshit more quickly and thoroughly than ever before.

Edited January 26, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[prole]

Hey anyone want to go shooting this weekend, just picked up a little .22 revolver and a bulk pack of ammo. Going to teach the kiddos how to wreak havoc on cans and paper... Open invite for you city dwellers.

 

That little .22 doesn't really have the kind of stopping power our children need to defend themselves against an attacker.

[yellowlab03]

If gun registrations work so well, why did Canada scrap theirs?

 

They actually only scrapped registration of long-guns, and it was scrapped after the conservative party gained a majority. Sound familiar?

 

Or was it found to be completely ineffective, costly, unenforceable and a thorn in the side for law abiding citizens?

 

I have read about countries with effective gun laws. It kills me to be compared to anything Europe. Not to beat a dead horse, but we ain't fuckin' Europe dude. Holy shit look at the gay rights issue! We get our panties in a twist when a tit slips out on National TV and people expect everyone to just accept gay rights? Germany has tits in cereal commercials for god's sake.

[prole]

It kills me to be compared to anything Europe.

 

Gawd, I know, right? Can't we just pretend it doesn't exist? Grade on a curve, or some shit? Damn, they fuckin' up the global statistics n' shit!

[yellowlab03]

Gun sales have a lot to do with marketing - pretty much everything to do with marketing, and noone employs marketing's most powerful tool - paranoia (buy em before they ban em) like the NRA. In addition - wars tend to be great adverts for military style gear - witness the explosion of 'tac gear' - for hunting, for the range, but mostly for circle jerking. There are far fewer hunters than there were 20 years ago, yet sales in that industry have exploded to a 2.6 billion industry, thanks to 'I need to look badass' marketing. TV has been a great marketer, as well. How many blood sport shows are there now? In the early 90s, there were practically none.

 

FOX news has certainly been a factor in all this. Super popular - until now. Like the Teabagger idiocy, even that seems to have shot its wad.

 

Being a redneck also came into fashion, particularly when Bush was elected and it was deemed OK, even desireable, to be aggressive and stupid like the Prez. "Finally, someone to tell me that it was OK to be drunk all through high school"

 

Fortunately, this embarrassing cultural canker that is the new conservative movement seems to be healing up, albeit slowly, and good old fashion stewardship, creative rather than destructive energy, and the value of education over proud, willful ignorance seem to be returning.

 

Welcome to the new world of the innernutz, where a great percentage of the population can sniff out bullshit more quickly and thoroughly than ever before.

 

I would agree with most of that, holy crap look at airsofters . You also have to add in media, movies and video games influencing the young impressionable kiddos to want to be cool guys with all the Gucci kit running around in all of their tac gear. My nephews nut up when they get to come to uncle yellow's house and shoot ARs or go on base and see real life cool guys shooting shit and jumping out of planes. Hell they have better weapons recce skills than I do from them playing Battlefield and COD.

[tvashtarkatena]

The majority of Americans support equal LGBT rights now. Only the Kristian Kooks are holding out on that one. That clusterfuck is drawing to the close.

 

2 SCOTUS cases should seal the deal by this summer. Goodbye DOMA. SCOTUS may force Congress to pass legislation that forces the states to recognize all marriages, regardless of where performed. That doesnt' mean every state will immediately pass a gay marriage law - but they'll have to recognize marriage performed elsewhere or risk suite.

 

So, America's attitudes towards gay rights is pretty similar to Europe's. Yes, we're the only first world country that is particularly religious, and that religiosity is unusually fundamentalist, but even that's on the decline.

 

Knowledge is power. Religion relies on ignorance. Hard to maintain these days. Kristian rhetoric on the radio is full of circling the wagons paranoia. It should be. Their days are numbers, and their legislative agenda to transform America into a totalitarian state for God has largely been an expensive failure.

 

 

[yellowlab03]

I got a friend who's son has leukemia, she was told by some fuckwit that it was her fault because she married a hispanic and it was god's way of punishing her. No shit. I lean more towards the conservative side, but pushy overly religious people fucking piss me off.

[tvashtarkatena]

Anyone who hasn't realized the true nature of fundamentalist Kristianity by now, ignorance and cruelty, is in a coma. But selling imaginary love backed by the threat of damnation is good business; very low cost of goods, so here we are after 2,000 years, still beating back the same old whackjobs, grifters, and just plain assholes.

[murraysovereign]

If gun registrations work so well, why did Canada scrap theirs?

 

They actually only scrapped registration of long-guns, and it was scrapped after the conservative party gained a majority. Sound familiar?

 

Or was it found to be completely ineffective, costly, unenforceable and a thorn in the side for law abiding citizens?

 

It was scrapped because Stephen Harper is a blatant opportunist whose only guiding principle is that of political expediency. He'd spent the preceding few years whipping the "red meat" wing of the conservative party into a delirious frenzy over the long-gun registry in order to earn their votes and, when it worked, he was too scared shitless to deny them their happy ending. That's why it was scrapped - to pay for the votes of a relative handful of rural voters, pure and simple.

 

If you want to have a discussion based on facts and data and objective analysis, then Stephen Harper is most assuredly not the guy you want to point in support of your argument, or any argument, for that matter. Stephen Harper despises facts, data, and objective analysis. In fact he despises anything that isn't Stephen Harper, which means he even despises you, despite having never met or even heard of you.

[denalidave]

Hey anyone want to go shooting this weekend, just picked up a little .22 revolver and a bulk pack of ammo. Going to teach the kiddos how to wreak havoc on cans and paper... Open invite for you city dwellers.

Well now that you mention it, yes. I decided to take the kiddos (7 & 9 year old girls) out for their first gun lesson today. I had not been plinking for years. I let them shoot the Ruger Single Six revolver and I spent a dozen or so rounds with the 357 Black Hawk. Decided the rifles, shotguns and 44 mag may be a bit much. I had fun but they were bored in about 15 minutes. Par for the course, I suppose.

[glassgowkiss]

If gun registrations work so well, why did Canada scrap theirs?

 

They actually only scrapped registration of long-guns, and it was scrapped after the conservative party gained a majority. Sound familiar?

 

Or was it found to be completely ineffective, costly, unenforceable and a thorn in the side for law abiding citizens?

 

I have read about countries with effective gun laws. It kills me to be compared to anything Europe. Not to beat a dead horse, but we ain't fuckin' Europe dude. Holy shit look at the gay rights issue! We get our panties in a twist when a tit slips out on National TV and people expect everyone to just accept gay rights? Germany has tits in cereal commercials for god's sake.

well, funny you say that. it turns out people tend to think like that all over the world, including Iraq and Afghanistan. So before you use this argument, you should know it works both ways.