eldiente Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) General note: I think we can all have this discourse without the swear words at each other. My opinions only to follow. Next, to address Bills point: Lastly: You're not going to break your leg falling a few extra feet. Nope Nate. You're wrong. Go do the route then check back in with your opinion. Really. Yep, I'd have to see it first to understand. BUT if a route is so absurdly lose and dirty that the only way to climb it is by installing a bolt ladder, maybe it wasn't meant to be climbed eh? Or maybe a nice long top rope would suffice? I do understand, on clean, steep rock it makes sense for the bolts to be widely spaced. Yay for airy whippers into space! On blocky terrain I'd rather see the bolts close together. However, there is a precedent all over Oregon for dirty, lose routes with widely spaced bolts. (Smith has tons of dirty routes with widely spaced bolts as does Wolf rock etc) Seems Plaid is bucking a well established trend here. Edited September 4, 2012 by eldiente Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeR Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 So, when there are bolting issues in Oregon, particularly W OR what do you see your role to be? Or if it is someone elses responsibility, who's is it if not yours? What has worked to resolve bolting issues and what has not? For instance at Flagstone why were the bolts on Vortex thinned out while the 9+ bolts added to Toy Box remain? ============================================================== I haven't and won't chop the bolts on Toybox for a few reasons, chief among them is that it was retro bolted with permission of the FA team. None of the 3 in the FA team chopped them. Why should I impose my ethics if Corvington,Modrell, and Cornell could deal with the bolts? The route not only escaped the chop from the FA team, but other route developers. There were a lot of routes getting put up in the past decade. Their decision making process is more well informed than mine, and I don't chop as an extension of my respect for them. I've only spent maybe 30 minutes on stewardship in the years I've been going to Flagstone. The first steps in taking more active ownership of the crag would be to sweat it out taking care of the trail, scrubbing lichen, or what have you. I've a long way to go to even make a dent in the amount of sweat the Tvedt family has poured into stewardship around Oregon. Sure, I complain about Tvedt bolting practices. It has become somewhat of a dark joke whenever it comes up, which is rarely. Point is, I would rather spend energy on getting better so I can climb the proud routes than worry about another bolt-sprayed slab that has nothing to do with me. I agree with Luvshaker's answers. He is the only person so far in this discussion who has developed at both ends of the bolt spectrum(Moolack+Flagstone) AFAIK. The other interesting thing, is that I've never heard anyone bag on his ethics or attitude, or claim that he puts his ego ahead of the community. I think all styles are relevant and make climbing part of what it is, even the clip ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g orton Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Here's a real quick thought (that applies to some routes at some of the areas in question): if there is any possibility you can Z-clip, the bolts are way too close together. ======================================================== I've Z clipped only once. It happened on one of the 5.8 pitches on Eagles Dare on Acker rock. ======================================================== KirkW, !!Su huevos es muy rumboso!! Julian, maybe you can fill me in on what you consider a z-clip. I interpreted your comment as referencing when routes have been spaced close enough that you can easily clip bolts on the next route over. Please clearify for me. If this is the case Kirk you be the man!!! Eagles Dare is the only route on Acker's Southwest face. Your accomplishment is definitly note worthy! Edited September 4, 2012 by g orton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 My thoughts are that we have little solid rock to climb in this area... Despite all the activity, I'm not convinced we're adding to that particular inventory at what you'd call a fast clip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Here's a real quick thought (that applies to some routes at some of the areas in question): if there is any possibility you can Z-clip, the bolts are way too close together. ======================================================== I've Z clipped only once. It happened on one of the 5.8 pitches on Eagles Dare on Acker rock. ======================================================== KirkW, !!Su huevos es muy rumboso!! Julian, maybe you can fill me in on what you consider a z-clip. I interpreted your comment as referencing when routes have been spaced close enough that you can easily clip bolts on the next route over. Please clearify for me. Greg, in this case a Z-clip would mean you are at a clipping stance for the next bolt, and it's possible to grab the rope to clip and grab it below where it passes through the previous quickdraw. Then when you clip in, the rope forms a "Z" and the effect is that your "last piece of protection" is not the quickdraw you just clipped, but the previous one (it will also create horrendous rope drag). Now, it's possible to always avoid this by grabbing the rope at the tie-in point and sliding your hand down it, but a lot of people don't do this and instead reach for it with a full arm extension in order to already have a nice length of rope to clip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g orton Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 Thanks Julian. I'm glad I asked. KirkW, where did you find the oportunity to do this on Eagles Dare? Maybe when it crosses over to the left in the middle of the first pitch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g orton Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 Once you get past the sarcasm and personal insults there are some good thoughts here. Below is a summary of what you've written about the issue of what to do about poorly bolted routes: Luveshaker – It's important for someone who develops sport routes to be aware of what other climbers think. Problem is most people won't say much on what they really think because they have been taught that in order to do that you have to bash an individual’s effort and/or style. I've noticed other climbers will usually respect someone's development if they don't have a f'off-I'm doing it my way-attitude, even if their style is different then the norm. Of course tolerance disappears when a climber pushes the boundaries when considering their environmental impact(s), and jepordizes land use opportunities. JoeR – Maybe the answers lie in challenging my ethics to be acceptable to the community rather than challenging the community to roll over so I can do it my way. JoeR – The person(s) then can feel that their bolting ethic is fine and dandy, however grudgingly the community accepted the route. Throw in some hubris and a cult of personality and good luck having a frank discussion about a route someone has bolted. Plaidman – I have never chopped a bolt. The only ones that I would chop are the ones that the first acentionist would sanction. Joe - I haven't and won't chop the bolts on Toybox for a few reasons, chief among them is that it was retro bolted with permission of the FA team. None of the 3 in the FA team chopped them. Why should I impose my ethics if Corvington, Modrell, and Cornell could deal with the bolts? The route not only escaped the chop from the FA team, but other route developers. There were a lot of routes getting put up in the past decade. Their decision making process is more well informed than mine, and I don't chop as an extension of my respect for them. Sure, I complain about bolting practices. It has become somewhat of a dark joke whenever it comes up, which is rarely. Point is, I would rather spend energy on getting better so I can climb the proud routes than worry about another bolt-sprayed slab that has nothing to do with me. Chetcat - Maybe its better to have one bad example, that developers can point to and use as a cautionary tale, rather than a series of poorly bolted crags? Buckaroo - ""when is it ok to add to an existing route? Never ""when is it appropriate to chop bolts on a route?"" Any established trad area. Any time permission was not asked or granted from first ascencionists. Any time bolts are near natural protection, cracks etc. Any time a trad climber with big balls is in the mood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 greg i like your encapsulation, but how about with bolts generally- If your a would-be developer, you don't have to feel like your reinventing the wheel in isolation - Pull from others, communicate with climbers as experienced and MORE experienced than yourself the old adage "measure twice and cut once" should be applied hundredsfold within bolting and climbing because the rock can never revert to its previous form once its been bolted "measure a million times, then bolt once" have any bolting project be such an overthought process you couldn't possibly have a made a mistake and if you did you had peers along the way willing to step in and tell you where your off just like the personalities and the me attitudes tend to blow up on this website - bolts all to often tend to be a "me" oriented affair. In the end it should be about bolting for the community as bill coe so efficently summed up in his response. Like Bill, I'm a crack-aholic, but I still bolt routes in my region for the greater good of climbers here who like face climbing more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaidman Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Just a bump to change the Subject line back to BOLTS!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Just a bump to change the Subject line back to BOLTS!!!!! NOPE. Only after you've bitch slapped that Adam Ondra kid and lectured the hell out of him for sticking in bolts closer than 10 feet on a clean overhang with ZERO RISK -especially in a easy access well trafficked area like the Elbe, not out on the middle of the forsaken Oregon wilderness where Mountain Lions will hump your dog and there is not even cell coverage and a man still stands alone. Click Nates link above "ADAM" and the last 2 bolts the lad places are maybe 3 feet apart, and he's hanging to drill them. Based on Nates post above explaining to you, PLAIDMAN, that 10 feet is CLEARLY too close to put bolts. I'm sure he has already scolded the lad about his poor style. If you do it or confirm that Nate already did, then you can change the thread title back. Sorry dude, there's rules ya know. And I should get my hand drill back too. There is a daily charge for late gear. $0.10/cents a day in fact. At this point, you owe me a Terminator Porter and if the hand drill doesn't show up it might soon be a full dinner and drunken binge..... Until then, we will continue to have an excessive inventory of shit rock as the title suggests. Hopefully Dave Sowerby fully recovers too so his fingers are fully functional and he can swear online at least at the loose shit around here. Until that cast gets off I can almost say I'm finally outclimbing the guy:-) As long as it's not a slab I'd bet. Hola Dave! heal up man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaidman Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Had to look up Adam Ondra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Ondra Oh. That guy. He would probably bitch slap me back. I don't want to even go there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g orton Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) Bolting New Routes, Summary Checat - Appropriate bolt spacing is subjective - but most climbers worth their salt can identify when a bolts been placed a. at a stance reasonable to clip, b. prudent give the last piece of protection below said bolt. Bolts placed on lead. The bolts are where there are stances practical for bolting (also practical for clipping) and there isn't excess because excess would mean a ridiculous day bolting for the FAist. (greg: just because a route is bolted on lead does not mean you should not go back and assess the placements. My biggest runouts tend to be when I’m bolting on lead) Chetcat - If a route is bolted on rappel - have the creativity and awareness to understand where a bolt would have been potentially placed on lead, where a stance would have occured because that same stance will work for route-leaders. Climb the route a couple of times on tr if your rap-bolting make sure you have the best places for bolts where the leader is assuming the amount of risk you have in mind for the route, but are avoiding R or X situations. (Question greg: when is a R really and R? Some climbers seem to complain about a route being run out once there feet are above the last clip.) Bolt as little as you need to. (greg: needs more.What is “as little as you need?” Does this mean that if you are bolting a 5.10a route you will bolt closer through the .10a sections and run out easier sections?) Chetcat - Look at the situation at Castle Rock near City of Rocks - there they have a climbing ranger with eons of experience with route development. New route goes thru a formal process on paper with images and proposed bolts. He reviews, he climbs the route, makes edits changes theoretical placements of bolts based on whats practical - he then hands back edited and approved route paperwork. Its then on the developer to bolt the route within these terms. (greg: my greatest fear is that this is where climbing is headed. Is this really what we want? Nationally there is also discussion that local climbing clubs would require a review and approval before new routes are established on lands they’ll manage.) Chetcat - What you may think of as "run-out" or "over-bolted" may be completely different from what the next person thinks, but if you pull from multiple opinions and get a range of values BEFORE you bolt, you'll probably get that spacing worked out better. (greg – Do you feel many climbers are stuck on the expectation that a route is either a “Trad” route with natural pro or a “Sport route” where they will be able to clip before their toes have left the last bolt, just like they’ve learned in the gy? I have read comments that many of the routes in Western Oregon “are not very sporty”. I like that. I think there is room for the third definition to take some of the sterility out of the discussion.) Billcoe - It's always been local (crag) ethics and tradition, with a nod to the dude or dudette who climbed it first, trump all. This can clearly be seen as differentiated at Yosemite (attempt to climb with as little bolts as the FA can get away with) and Smith Rocks (which has runout routes and closely bolted face climbs depending on who FA'ed it mixed in with some sweet gear only cracks). Plaidman - Good word – “differentiated” Billcoe - In 1999 (at age six) at Rovinj in Croatia Adam climbed 6a/5.9 routes with bolts every half meter. Luvshaker - I personally think it's very cool to have different styles (i.e. bolt spacing) even at the the same crag, even lines right next to each other. Sometimes I just aint in the mood to run it out, so the more bolts the better-no shame in that. But, when I start up a difficult route with less bolts it's game time! I love having to focus on movement, and not rely on grabbing a quickdraw if things don't feel just right. There is a reason I have walked by Dreamin so many times. But when I do that route, it's gonna be WAY sweeter!I don't care where you climb in the world, or grade you climb. More commitment is going to equal a different (I believe richer) experience for most climbers. Those are the routes you want to hear someone talk about around the campfire. (greg: good point, but how do we describe and accept variety?) Eldiente - I do understand, on clean, steep rock it makes sense for the bolts to be widely spaced. Yay for airy whippers into space! On blocky terrain I'd rather see the bolts close together. However, there is a precedent all over Oregon for dirty, lose routes with widely spaced bolts. (Smith has tons of dirty routes with widely spaced bolts as does Wolf rock etc) JoeR - He is the only person so far in this discussion who has developed at both ends of the bolt spectrum(Moolack+Flagstone) AFAIK. The other interesting thing, is that I've never heard anyone bag on his ethics or attitude, or claim that he puts his ego ahead of the community. Edited September 6, 2012 by g orton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Lighten up kids, in a few years Mitt will frac the planet apart and we'll all be drifing on hunks of rock in space, so climb while you can. Meanwhile, enjoy this blast from the past: Here's your topo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 You should add the details if you're going to post that up: p1 - 5.6 / 120' / 2 bolts p2 - 5.4 / 110' / 4 bolts p3 - 5.4 / 100' / 2 bolts p4 - 5.6 / 100' / 9 bolts p5 - 5.5 / 110' / 9 bolts p6 - 5.7 / 160' / 5 bolts p7 - 5.6 / 190' / 7 bolts (walk) p8 - 5.5 / 200' / 3 bolts p9 - 5.9 / 160' / 10 bolts p10 - 5.8 / 100' / 7 bolts p11 - 10b / 90' / 9 bolts (walk) p12 - 5.8 / 110' / 6 bolts p13 - 5.2 / 130' / 1 bolts p14 - 5.7 / 160' / 10 bolts p15 - 5.2 / 160' / 2 bolts p16 - 5.0 / 80' / 0 bolts p17 - 5.0 / 140' / 0 bolts p18 - 5.8 / 110' / 8 bolts p19 - 10c / 130' / 17 bolts p20 - 5.7 / 60' / 2 bolts p21 - 10a / 180' / 15 bolts p22 - 5.8 / 160' / 11 bolts p23 - 5.9 / 90' / 14 bolts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 What's wrong with the odd R or X rated climb? Has / will the 'community' banished such 'egofests' all together as unsavory? At what cost? If it's a 'community service', how do you define 'community'? Who determines the lowest common 'community' denominator when bolting as a service? Is the long-term trend towards body-length or sub-body-length bolt spacing as a norm (115 / 22 = 5'2" though aid was the driver here)? Should all climbs be family-friendly and entertaining? Loop to top... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I enjoyed a recent mag article that brought back fond memories of two steep multi-pitch cobble routes on somewhat sketchy terrain: Shake n Bake and Lava Falls in Pinnacles Natl Monument. There were plenty of knobs to hit if you fell. Both were drilled by hand from stances on lead. And bolts are not body length apart. Or even close to it. These routes would not be what they are today if they had bolts every 5 feet. But Oregon is not California. What matters is what the ethic is at the crag in question. If bolts every 5 feet is the norm then a new route with bolts every 5 feet will be right at home. If neighboring routes are runout sketchfests with tied off knobs then a closely bolted route won't fit with the local ethic. If this is the first route on a crag then all bets are off. Y'all can figure it out. Debate and discussion are healthy and should not be stifled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checat Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Greg – “I have read comments that many of the routes in Western Oregon “are not very sporty”. I like that.” Me too! Rad – “Debate and discussion are healthy and should not be stifled.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shapp Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) Greg – “I have read comments that many of the routes in Western Oregon “are not very sporty”. I like that.” Me too! Rad – “Debate and discussion are healthy and should not be stifled.” It looks as if you have taken my Big Moss Raper photo from my gallery and made it your avatar, maybe you should pay me a $2000 royalty for its use? This chaacter is a Darrington Super Hero and would not even think of touching a road cut, or miniscule boulder pebble in the Oregon coast range. He is unleashed several pitches up after pounding a tallboy and slaming in a 1/2 inch bolt with a 28oz ballpeen penetrator, on off days he looks a lot like hanman, ben murphy, riley81, or several other Oso rodeo bronk riders (goats that is) Edited September 6, 2012 by shapp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g orton Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 Here is a summary of what I'm taking from this discussion. Hopefully it is readable. It looked better in Word. I'd be interested in hearing if this covers your concerns, why or why not. Is there something that needs to be added to the list or taken out... BOLTING Pressure from route development into sensitive areas and more visible locations has raised the level of national concern from State and Federal land managers. These concerns have the potential for initiating a regulatory response unless climbers can find common understanding at the national level to lobby and self-manage our activities. The following is a draft summary of potential guidelines for route development, maintenance, and corrective actions. Obviously with more discussion each item could be greatly expanded. “No one climber at any time has been more than his group or more than his generation.” – Geoffrey Winthrop Young Route setting is deeply rooted in tradition and mentoring, yet each generation views the rock with new eyes finding possibilities of technique, style, or form that eluded those before. To that end climbing ethics are historically rooted in maintaining the climbing environment and essential elements of the climb while allowing for change. “Change is inevitable. It is what tradition in climbing is all about.” – Allan Watts, 1980s Rock climbing is a self-regulated sport with a history of ethics by which we climb. Open forum and debate are essential elements to self-managing our activities. Debate brings needed reflection on our past to help guide our future. The practice of adding bolts to existing routes, over protecting, under protecting, over development, altering the rock, ratings, and first ascent styles are historic debates that continue today. “A climbing party pools its ability and its confidence. The longer and closer its association, the less are its individuals conscious of how much they contribute and how much they draw from the collective power.” – Geoffrey Winthrop Young In established crags: Become knowledgeable of local history and the ethics under which an area has been established. Order of decision making at established crags: a) Local history and the ethics under which an area has been established. b) Original Area Developer Consensus. c) Original Route Developer. d) Consensus of route developers with area knowledge. e) Consensus of non-development lead climbers with area knowledge. When modifying an existing route: 1. Gain approval from the original route or area developers. 2. Modifications of a route shall not detract from the inherent qualities of the climb. 3. Priority shall be provided to modifications that increase climber safety, while weighing the original style and nature of the climb. “…One more bolt would make it accessible to many more climbers. One more bolt would rob it of a tremendous amount of atmosphere, excitement and challenge, of its spirit and so of its quality. It would become just another route…” – Peter Gulyash. When taking corrective actions: 1. Gain approval from the original route or area developers. 2. Corrective actions shall not detract from the inherent qualities of the climb. 3. Make every effort to restore the rock to its original condition. 4. Evaluating, upgrading and/or replacing lower quality or damaged existing anchors with ones of equal or higher quality is the personal decision and responsibility of every climber who uses the route, without exception. 5. Generally adding new belay anchors, rappel anchors, and chain is a personal decision and responsibility of every climber who uses the route, unless restricted by the ethics of the area. 6. Use camouflage or other means to reduce the visibility of anchors where appearance is or may become a concern. In new crags or unclimbed rock in established crags: "If I meet the impossible. I'm not going to be killing any dragons, but if anyone wants to come with me, we'll go to the top together on the routes we can do without branding ourselves murderers." - Reinhold Messner Become knowledgeable of local history and the ethics under which climbing has evolved in your region. 1. Your actives should not detract from the inherent qualities of the climbing environment. For example: • Do not alter the rock by chipping. • Identify, manage to limit climber impacts to sensitive plants and animals in the area. • Keep the number of trails to a minimum. 2. Remain open to constructive criticism, strive for consensus. Guidelines for route development • Give passive protection priority over fixed anchor placement. • Aspire to place the minimum number of fixed anchors required to protect the lead climber. • Consider both Risk and Consequence of a fall before placing a fixed anchor. For example, a 5.7 section on a 5.11a route may carry a high consequence but low risk for a leader fall and may not warrant the same level of protection required through a crux move. • The use of motor operated drills is prohibited within congressionally designated wilderness. • Remain up-to-date on materials and methods for placing fixed protection. =============================================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaidman Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) Nicely done Greg. IMHO. I was unaware that the man was considering stepping in and regulating bolting to the degree that you presented. It does not surprise me though. There is a whole lot of bolting going on. Edited September 11, 2012 by Plaidman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 There is a whole lot of bolting going on. From the mouth of babes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Are you sure that you want to take a swing at this bee's nest??? There are some pretty lengthy "discussions" about this topic on this site! Wise words indeed! In this, I find myself in complete agreement with Mr. Dawg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Being unwise myself though, I fear I am moved to comment: "climbing something like Crested Jewel or Safe Sex, the bolted runouts add spice to the climb. ""2) when is it ok to add to an existing route? Never ""3) when is it appropriate to chop bolts on a route?"" Any established trad area. Any time permission was not asked or granted from first ascencionists. Any time bolts are near natural protection, cracks etc. Any time a trad climber with big balls is in the mood. Crest Jewel and Safe Sex are not run out, they're frequently climbed trade routes. Your other two examples are ill considered and contradictory. If you can't add bolts to a route out of respect for the first ascensionist, then you can't chop the first ascensionist's bolts for the same reason, even if you wouldn't put them that close. If anyone with the skills can chop a bolt they don't need on an established route, then anyone without the skills can place a bolt wherever they damn well please on the same pitch. You don't get it both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaidman Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Way to wade in Off-White! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I was half hyperbolic trolling and I've never chopped any bolts. ""2) when is it ok to add to an existing route? Never ""3) when is it appropriate to chop bolts on a route?"" This should read "When is it not appropriate to add bolts." It's a lot easier to stop bolts before they are placed. Any established trad area. Any time permission was not asked or granted from first ascencionists. Any time bolts are near natural protection, cracks etc. ""Crest Jewel and Safe Sex are not run out, they're frequently climbed trade routes."" comparatively speaking they are. Crested Jewel has 5.7 pitches with 1 or 2 bolts. Compare to Prime Rib on Goat Wall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.