climbing on a shortened rope?

[christophbenells]

do you connect back to your harness like a kiwi coil?

[Ed_Hobbick]

I've connected to my harness with a locker and a clove hitch.

 

Are you talking for glacier travel purposes?

[rob]

I've connected to my harness with a locker and a clove hitch.

 

are you talking about tying-in? I would never use a clove hitch as my main tie-in knot. Use an alpine butterfly or a bowline-on-a-bight

 

 

[Ed_Hobbick]

Yes I was talking about tying in. I use this method for two man glacier travel. I make sure the clove hitch is snug of course. What is your concern about this method?

 

I have thought about it myself and welcome your input. Perhaps my way is not safe.

 

 

[counterfeitfake]

Clove hitch would be fine for a kiwi coil.

 

Not clear what the OP is asking, though I am pretty sure the answer is "yes".

[rob]

Yes I was talking about tying in. I use this method for two man glacier travel. I make sure the clove hitch is snug of course. What is your concern about this method?

 

I have thought about it myself and welcome your input. Perhaps my way is not safe.

 

 

Hmm, I guess it just feels wrong. I could see in a kiwi coil how it wouldn't be the end of the world, but why not just use a butterfly? Just as easy to tie, and superior. It would bug me all day long.

[DPS]

For glacier travel I tie in short with a butterfly. Using a 'soft' knot that can potentially loosen like a clove hitch feels wrong to me as well, although I always tie into the belay with a clove hitch, for this very reason. Easy to adjust if I need to and in a factor two fall the tightening of the knot absorbs some impact. I guess the potential to loosen is what bothers me, whereas a butterfly can't. I also question if tying into a locker on your harness with a clove hitch is UIAA approved.

 

Tying in short and leaving coils makes it easier to facilitate a crevasse rescue, to drop rope into the crevasse to haul a pack, or to set up a Z haul system. The Kiwi Coil is better for short roping on moderately technical terrain than glaciers since it is easy to untie and work with a full rope for technical pitches when one needs to. Kiwi Coils could be made to work for glaciers, but I like having the extra coils free, ready to use.

Edited June 8, 2012 by DPS

[mattp]

I don't know what you guys are calling the Kiwi coil but, when I was in New Zealand I saw a guide instructing his client about climbing on the middle of third of the rope, tying in with a butterfly knot and locker, and each carrying enough rope to reach the other in a crevasse rescue situation. To measure thirds of the rope, he showed how you could just count coils: coil the rope as you normally would (butterfly style), counting coils 'till you get to the end. Then divide by three. Next time you are roping up you need simply take 1/3 of the total count from each end, add a little bit for good measure, and tie your butterfly knots.

 

I agree about tying in with the clove hitch. Generally, I don't even use it for tying in at a belay either. Next time you are at a nice ledge and tied in with the clove hitch take one of the ends coming out of the knot and whip it up and down and sideways a bit. You'll see your clove hitch disintegrate into something not at all reassuring. I'm not sure how dangerous this is -- I haven't tried step two of the test and then jumped off the ledge to see how fast it will again tighten up -- but it just worries me that my "knot" will not be a "knot" if there is a lot of activity as I move about, change clothes, get out of the way of the incoming climber, etc. I prefer to use a real knot and not to have to consider this. I certainly wouldn't use it to tie in for a belay though, again, I have not actually tried whipping apart my clove hitch tie in and then taking a practice fall.

[BirdDog]

Kiwi Coils could be made to work for glaciers, but I like having the extra coils free, ready to use.

 

Isn't that what a Kiwi Coil does, leaves extra coils ready for use?

[DPS]

Kiwi Coils could be made to work for glaciers, but I like having the extra coils free, ready to use.

 

Isn't that what a Kiwi Coil does, leaves extra coils ready for use?

A Kiwi coil ties into the end of the rope, then coils part of the rope in between the climbers. Once you untie the coil, there are no extra coils past your tie in point (the rope end) to drop into a crevasse of create a haul system. Like I said, you make the system work for crevasse rescue by untying from the rope end, but I prefer the simplicity of tying in 15-20 meters from the end on a butterfly knot.

Edited June 8, 2012 by DPS

[BirdDog]

Kiwi Coils could be made to work for glaciers, but I like having the extra coils free, ready to use.

 

Isn't that what a Kiwi Coil does, leaves extra coils ready for use?

A Kiwi coil ties into the end of the rope, then coils part of the rope in between the climbers. Once you untie the coil, there are no extra coils past your tie in point (the rope end) to drop into a crevasse of create a haul system.

 

OK, I'll but that. I always thought a kiwi coil was tying in short and wrapping remaining rope in coils around your head/neck/shoulders/pack/etc.. What is that called? Tying in short?

[tvashtarkatena]

A clove hitch is not a good choice for tying in for the following reasons:

 

1. They can slip. If you have to 'make sure it's tight', don't use it.

 

2. They can jam under load to the point where you have to chop the rope. There are more than a few aid climbers who've jumared on clove hitches and learned this the hard way.

 

Butterfly and bowline on a coil (for your rescue loops) are a good way to go for tying in short.

 

Clove hitches are a quick, adjustable tie in for a dynamic anchor with an upward pull, but there are better knots out there for other applications.

 

Edited June 8, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[DPS]

Kiwi Coils could be made to work for glaciers, but I like having the extra coils free, ready to use.

 

Isn't that what a Kiwi Coil does, leaves extra coils ready for use?

A Kiwi coil ties into the end of the rope, then coils part of the rope in between the climbers. Once you untie the coil, there are no extra coils past your tie in point (the rope end) to drop into a crevasse of create a haul system.

 

OK, I'll but that. I always thought a kiwi coil was tying in short and wrapping remaining rope in coils around your head/neck/shoulders/pack/etc.. What is that called? Tying in short?

I don't know what the official name for that is, I just call it tying in short. The Kiwi Coil ties into the harness with the end of the rope with a rewoven figure 8, then the several loops of rope are passed over one shoulder and under the other. A bight of rope is passed through the loops, the belay loop and tied off.

[montypiton]

"Kiwi coil" - name comes from John Fisher (used to own Palisades School of Mountaineering - Bishop, CA) who named it for S.P. Parker (from NZ) who introduced it to the AMGA at a workshop in 1988 (I was there). You tie into the rope end, coil about a third of the rope snug over your shoulder, tie off the coil and clip the tie-off to your harness. According to S.P., the NZ guides intend this method to be used on glaciers - if tied correctly, the coil functions as a chest harness for a climber taking a crevasse fall. The climber on the surface constructs an anchor and anchors the rope before untieing his/her kiwi-coil, then unties his/her coils and uses that free rope to construct a raising system if necessary. For a rope of three, kiwi-coil wouldn't be necessary, because with one in a hole and two on the surface, the surface climbers have enough rope between them to construct a raising system. Guides also use it to manage rope when short-roping clients on moderate ground. I like it for simulclimbing, as it facilitates communication by keeping partners closer together,and its easy to switch back and forth between short belayed pitches and simulclimbing. I've never used it for a rope of more than two.

Edited June 8, 2012 by montypiton

[BirdDog]

Thanks Monty, that clarifies it.

[Ed_Hobbick]

I think that it's even better to use two non lockers, opposite and opposed on the harness with a clove hitch. This gives you an extra beaner without much extra wieght.

 

The butterfly and the other ways are fine too. It's just that with the clove hitch, once you get out of they belay you don't have to untie a knot for the haul system.

 

This is just a system that made sense to me after thinking about it for a few hours and I'm not a proffesional, I'm an amatuer.

[chris]

"Kiwi coil" - name comes from John Fisher (used to own Palisades School of Mountaineering - Bishop, CA) who named it for S.P. Parker (from NZ) who introduced it to the AMGA at a workshop in 1988 (I was there). You tie into the rope end, coil about a third of the rope snug over your shoulder, tie off the coil and clip the tie-off to your harness. According to S.P., the NZ guides intend this method to be used on glaciers - if tied correctly, the coil functions as a chest harness for a climber taking a crevasse fall. The climber on the surface constructs an anchor and anchors the rope before untieing his/her kiwi-coil, then unties his/her coils and uses that free rope to construct a raising system if necessary. For a rope of three, kiwi-coil wouldn't be necessary, because with one in a hole and two on the surface, the surface climbers have enough rope between them to construct a raising system. Guides also use it to manage rope when short-roping clients on moderate ground. I like it for simulclimbing, as it facilitates communication by keeping partners closer together,and its easy to switch back and forth between short belayed pitches and simulclimbing. I've never used it for a rope of more than two.

 

I worked for SP from 2003-2011, and this is news to me! But, in my experience is that kiwi coils are best used on terrain where the rope length will change occasionally - glacier to rock, 3rd to 4th to 5th class, etc. For dedicated (all day) glacier travel, I'll do a mountaineer's coil that can live on top of my pack, clip in with a locking and non-locking biner (with equal spine length), or a single double-action locking 'biner (depends on the trip), on a figure-8 bight.

 

Kiwi coils don't work so well if you want/need to take all the coils off and back on (like at breaks). Mountaineer coils work better in that circumstance.

 

Edit: since a kiwi coil is tied off on the belay loop (or a biner clipped to the waist/legs), it does NOT substitute for a chest harness. In fact, if the loops are too small and the kiwi-tie-off is not clipped to the harness, the direction of pull can make a crevasse-fall arrest MORE difficult.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited June 9, 2012 by chris

[LittleJohn]

 

 

Good discussion on this subject.

 

[montypiton]

Chris - agreed, a kiwi-coil is NOT a substitute for a chest harness, but it can be tied to fulfill that function, and I can assure you from experience, it does work. certainly a mountaineer's coil stowed on your pack would work as well as the kiwi coil in many situations, and I can see how it could be more convenient in some. wearing a pack of any size, kiwi-coil seems to just get in the way...