Ian Caldwell Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Smith Rock. It looks like the closure for the Prairie Falcons is also going into effect in the First Kiss area. It will be the same closure as the last 2 years.
Alan_Howard Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 To best keep the process formal we are not releasing the documents in their draft form. This could cause confusion for the Rangers and WDFW. Sssshhhhhh! Quiet! Negotiations in progress! God forbid documents submitted to public officials should be public. And lawdy, we's all knoes dems officials is so easily confused. And if they're easily confused, god only knows just how confusing it would all be for the poor average cc.com climber who makes it out to Beacon a few times a year but doesn't know the secret handshake and aren't part of the club - definitely no need for them to see or comment on any of the details. Sigh. I always did wonder exactly what 'formal' meant. Same as it ever was. All in all a proud display of openness and the true potential of social media. Ya, ubetcha. Nothing personal, JosephH, but with how you respond to some people about Beacon Rock, and with how you appear to handle the differences in opinions, can you blame the BRCA for their methods?
JosephH Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Nothing personal, JosephH, but with how you respond to some people about Beacon Rock, and with how you appear to handle the differences in opinions, can you blame the BRCA for their methods? Absolutely - the name of the game with this crew is they don't want anything discussed publicly and especially not how they really feel about it all. Being public and honest would require they actually be willing to entertain mutual respect for the land managers, develop a shred of honest concern for the Peregrines, and be willing to act in an open, upfront and honest manner in their dealings regarding Beacon. That picture is unfortunately, the antithesis of the honest truth of the matter and after eight years of horseshit and one lie after another out there it just gets to the point of calling a spade a spade.
stevetimetravlr Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Nothing personal, JosephH, but with how you respond to some people about Beacon Rock, and with how you appear to handle the differences in opinions, can you blame the BRCA for their methods? Absolutely - the name of the game with this crew is they don't want anything discussed publicly and especially not how they really feel about it all. Being public and honest would require they actually be willing to entertain mutual respect for the land managers, develop a shred of honest concern for the Peregrines, and be willing to act in an open, upfront and honest manner in their dealings regarding Beacon. That picture is unfortunately, the antithesis of the honest truth of the matter and after eight years of horseshit and one lie after another out there it just gets to the point of calling a spade a spade. The above by Joseph is of course absolutely false, and is a small example of how he operates. Beware if he takes an interest in your crag or in the access or raptor closure issues in your area.
JosephH Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 If only it were so - unfortunately, every word of it is dead-on true. The said part here, once again, is you know it.
Alan_Howard Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 JosephH, I appreciate your desire for an open community focused on an honest solution to several issues, but it appears that you have that already. In reading the BRCA blog it is clear that they have taken steps to work with the necessary folks that are involved in this situation. If you are really concerned that their methods are not an open and honest framework for addressing the access issues, then wouldn't your efforts be better spent contacting the climbers on the executive committee of the BRCA rather than just complaining about how you disagree with it here? You sound like you have some interest in climbing and birds - to what extent for each I'm not altogether sure - but I bet if you talked to the executive committee they would, at the very least, treat your opinions with the same courtesy that they treat everyone elses. And, Alasdair, sorry if this thread was hijacked a bit... not my intention
JosephH Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 JosephH, I appreciate your desire for an open community focused on an honest solution to several issues, but it appears that you have that already. In reading the BRCA blog it is clear that they have taken steps to work with the necessary folks that are involved in this situation. If you are really concerned that their methods are not an open and honest framework for addressing the access issues, then wouldn't your efforts be better spent contacting the climbers on the executive committee of the BRCA rather than just complaining about how you disagree with it here? You sound like you have some interest in climbing and birds - to what extent for each I'm not altogether sure - but I bet if you talked to the executive committee they would, at the very least, treat your opinions with the same courtesy that they treat everyone elses. And, Alasdair, sorry if this thread was hijacked a bit... not my intention The 'executive committee'? That's good. The reality is they have simply recycled a failed '96 proposal which has a single guiding principle - that their favorite route up the Corner and off the party ledge to the trail be open. Period, end of story. Everything else is political and technical fluff they don't believe a word of. And I haven't seen it, but I can absolutely guarantee you there is nothing in it that manages fixed protection in any formal way and without that Beacon will be open to just the sort of bolting that just happened on FFA. Here's the deal, everyone who climbs at Beacon will be governed by this plan and the idea that there is any reason to be all hush-hush about it is totally bogus beyond words. The fact that it's all secret tells you everything you need to know about it and especially that nothing has changed since '96. It succinctly puts the lie to all of stevetimetravlr's fervent claims to the contrary. And P.S. You sound like you have some interest in climbing and birds - to what extent for each I'm not altogether sure. I have one and only one agenda out there: getting every single climbing day in I can. Period. Same as it ever was. But I not willing to be anything but direct, upfront, and honest to get those days and I'm not the one with the hidden agenda.
genepires Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I think this post in regards to informing and collection info on what areas are open and closed due to bird closures needs to be started over. this is turning away from the original rationale.
denalidave Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Joe, I think the secrecy is geared directly toward you, primarily due to your obtuse position on the matter. At least, that is my read on it. There has been a big step toward getting all this out in the open and transparent. At the same time, some folks are going out of there way to try and nurture relationships with the agencies involved. Seems you have your own agenda that is perceived by many in the local climbing community as conflicting with their own goals at Beacon. Times are a changing and many of us believe it is time to grab the bull by the horns. We can engage the agencies and we do have some traction that has not been seen in years past.
JosephH Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Joe, I think the secrecy is geared directly toward you, primarily due to your obtuse position on the matter. At least, that is my read on it. I heartily agree that is the whole point of the secrecy despite how futile that is. As far as 'obtuse' goes - which is more obtuse, working honestly and above board with mutual respect in your dealings with the various managers of record for Beacon, or talking shit, not wanting any of your dealings on the rock out at Beacon public or subject to any form of management, putting out paper that has neither an honest agenda nor reflects the real beliefs of the people who are proffering it? There has been a big step toward getting all this out in the open and transparent. At the same time, some folks are going out of there way to try and nurture relationships with the agencies involved. Yeah, accept there is a huge gulf between honest relationships built on mutual respect, shared concerns, and honest words and a grudging relationship that mouths what you think the "assholes" want to hear in order to get the single-minded object of your desire without a wit of real regard for the bigger picture at work out there. And that's without the continuous shit-talking, us versus them, and 'the man' monologues that so constitute the bedrock of local Beacon culture... Seems you have your own agenda that is perceived by many in the local climbing community as conflicting with their own goals at Beacon. Times are a changing and many of us believe it is time to grab the bull by the horns. We can engage the agencies and we do have some traction that has not been seen in years past. Yeah, the same agenda I started with - get every possible day of climbing in out there - nothing more, nothing less. The difference is in how. Recycling the lousy '96 proposal whose sole intent and purpose is to open up the Corner to the Ledge to the trail, then having the AF go over it for verbage ("viewshed"), and then mouthing a bunch of total patronizing bullshit about the Peregrines and all the civic duties that will be undertaken is selfish, naive, and way less than honest. And in the end, it all boils down to honest, integrity, and a willingness to show both a mutual respect and a shared understanding and interest (if not a bit of empathy) in the bigger picture of the overall management of the park. And sorry, I still don't see a shred of that. What I do see, however, is a new crop of people inculcated into the same bullshit who have now worked them selves up to the point of being "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more". What is clear is nothing else has really changed, otherwise the ineffective and myopic '96 proposal wouldn't have been recycled and the proposal that was submitted would have offered Beacon some real and formal protection from bolting which you can be sure this one doesn't. So if that's being 'obtuse', then yeah, I'm obtuse and proud of it. This is all so the antithesis of real [self-]managed climber involvements that happen in Eldo, the Gunks, and the Valley as to be painful to watch year in, year out. At this point, however, it's clear the hostile attitudes and myopic realities aren't going to change out there any time soon (or are you really going to sit there at your keyboard and tell me I somehow have that all wrong - yeah, sure I have.).
denalidave Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Joe, the climbing management plan is long overdue to be re-vamped and re-evaluated. Yes, resources are spread very thin for Park Rangers but I sure as hell don't see all this drama and wishful thinking you refer to. All the more reason we should build an alliance with the Park as well as the decision makers higher up the chain. This is an opportunity for the climbing community to step up and assist the under serviced parks dept by getting organized and being proactive towards the problem(s). This might just help in taking some of the load off the strapped rangers. Again, you seem to see things very differently than a majority of the climber's involved. Are we headed in the right direction? Time will tell. Much to your denial, this is not the same "Beacon Bitch Fest". I'd argue that most of that is Kevin stirring the pot, but he's even been pretty quiet on the issue this year. So, yeah, obtuse, set in your ways and stubborn as a mule. Whatever you want to call it, I'm just trying to be open & transparent cause I don't think all this is any big secret, anyway.
JosephH Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Nor are the root attitudes of the core local contingent - it isn't about a 'bitchfest' or kevin - it's about core attitudes required for honest working relationships with the agency personnel and seeing where climbing management sits within a heirarchy of concerns those managers deal with day in, day out. So sure, call me obtuse, but I don't see any real changes in attitude, just faux mouthing of what folks think the land managers want to hear. If there had been any real change in attitudes then this wasn't the proposal that would have been made and I wouldn't be the odd man out. But as it is there is still absolutely no interest in working out there on the rock in a truly transparent manner as any number of recent incidents have shown. Maybe that will happen some day, but it isn't happening now. Now is just a bunch of new and old folks still angry and once again whipped up by the unfairness of it all taking another stab in the dark.
denalidave Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Some of us see it much differently. Carry on.
JosephH Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 No doubt, in that circle-the-wagons sort of way. And who knows, maybe it will work out, but the blind focus on reopening the corner/ledge represents a lost opportunity to put some real protections in place and to set up to operate in an open and above board way.
tvashtarkatena Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I'd like to see some birds weigh in on this.
denalidave Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I'd like to see some birds weigh in on this. Boc, boc, bagoooccckk! Where's the Rooster when you need him?
tvashtarkatena Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 When birds don't like something they just take a dump on it. Just like here.
JosephH Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Yep, and they've been up in the Jolly Roger's crow's nest dumping like an old lady on an overdose of metamucil for years.
kevbone Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I'd argue that most of that is Kevin stirring the pot thanks for the vote of confidence.....but I am only stirring JH's pot.
kevbone Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 But as it is there is still absolutely no interest in working out there on the rock in a truly transparent manner as any number of recent incidents have shown. Joseph....you are the most nontransparent person I know. Seriously.
ivan Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 thank you for allow beatard to post in very important thread!!!
denalidave Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 thank you for allow beatard to post in very important thread!!! Pleaz allow me to sell subcripshen to Beatard Climb Magazine. If sell nuf subcripshen, we get go to Beatard heaven. I lernt no pragrin flaconz closing in Beatard haven. But wait, if u axe now, also get u free chock baIl wif sel subcripshen.
KirkW Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 I clicked on this thread to read about bird closures but instead ended up in the Beatard forum. Thanks for that guys. I guess having your very own forum to do all the pissing, moaning, name calling, whining, crying and self aggrandizing ego flogging wasn't enough. Thanks for mucking up this thread with your bullshit too.
ivan Posted March 1, 2012 Posted March 1, 2012 i'm just providing color commentary here kirk, i have no axe to grind and am totally zen 'bout the birdies
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