Free Speech Quiz

[tvashtarkatena]

Content restrictions must pass strict scrutiny. The restriction must serve a compelling state interest that cannot be served in a less speech restrictive manner.

 

Time, place, or manner restrictions must withstand intermediate scrutiny. Note that any regulations that would force speakers to change how or what they say do not fall into this category. Time, place, or manner restrictions must:

Be content neutral

Be narrowly tailored

Serve a significant governmental interest

Leave open ample alternative channels for communication

[KaskadskyjKozak]

A bunch of students wore American flag T shirts on Cingo de Mayo, presumably to poke the large, latino student population in the eye. The school has a history of racial tensions. The school told the students to turn their shirts inside out. So far, the courts have backed them up.

Racial tensions aside, in my opinion this should be no different than allowing the WBC folks' the right to protest at funerals. I don't like the decision in this (CA high school) case, cuz it's still totally a free speech issue to me. The American-flag-wearing students should not have been forced to remove their shirts. Looks to me like the school administration kowtowed to the Latino student population to avoid an altercation. That's a pretty poor motivational basis, if you ask me.

 

I know that the decisions reached in Snyder v Phelps and the CA high school flap were made by two different courts, but I see a distinct lack on consistency in these two rulings as they currently stand.

 

It's OK for the WBC to drag out signs and banners and protest loudly, condemning GLBTs in a most flagrant and insensitive manner, in effect endorsing hate speech.

 

Yet, it's not OK for students to wear a T-shirt with an imprint of an American flag upon it on a day wherein another culture celebrates its national heritage.

 

The question to ask oneself here is this: "Were any Latino students who wore T-shirts espousing their national heritage also required to turn their shirts inside out?" If the answer to that question is "no", then this is a distinct case of discrimination and the court's decision is flawed.

 

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

 

[ivan]

A bunch of students wore American flag T shirts on Cingo de Mayo, presumably to poke the large, latino student population in the eye. The school has a history of racial tensions. The school told the students to turn their shirts inside out. So far, the courts have backed them up.

"Them" being the students? Or the school?

 

Racial tensions aside, in my opinion this should be no different than allowing the WBC folks' the right to protest at funerals. This is still totally a free speech issue to me. The American-flag-wearing students should not have been forced to remove their shirts. Looks to me like the school administration kowtowed to the Latino student population in order to avoid an altercation. That's a pretty poor motivational basis, if you ask me.

 

I know that the decisions reached in Snyder v Phelps and the CA high school flap were made by two different courts, but I see a distinct lack on consistency in these two rulings as they currently stand.

 

It's OK for the WBC to drag out signs and banners and protest loudly, condemning GLBTs in a most flagrant and insensitive manner, in effect endorsing hate speech.

 

Yet, it's not OK for students to wear a T-shirt with an imprint of an American flag upon it on a day wherein another culture celebrates its national heritage.

 

The question to ask oneself here is this: "Were any Latino students who wore T-shirts espousing their national heritage also required to turn their shirts inside out?" If the answer to that question is "no", then this is a distinct case of discrimination and the court's decision is flawed.

a public school is a very different location than a street corner however.

 

if some dipshit has a "god hates fags" billboard up on the corner, you can walk on by or get in his face and say the most hateful shit you too can think of.

 

niether are options for students in my classroom. if they do the former, they get suspended for skipping class. if they do the later, they get written up for fighting.

[ivan]

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

as an aside, i though i recall from my boy scout days that it is in fact disrespectful to turn a flag into a piece of apparel? in other words, wearing a flag patch on a uniform is cool, but making a shirt out a flag or of what appears to be a flag is not.

 

no difference to me, mind ye, red n white horizontal strips make me look too goddamn chubby

[tvashtarkatena]

If an interracial fight breaks out between latinos and American flag wearing students (because of the latters' choice of clothing on Cinco de Mayo), and school officials determine that it can be stopped by having the flag wearing students turn their shirts inside out, do they have the right to make those students do that in order to prevent imminent or further violence?

 

Edited November 30, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

as an aside, i though i recall from my boy scout days that it is in fact disrespectful to turn a flag into a piece of apparel? in other words, wearing a flag patch on a uniform is cool, but making a shirt out a flag or of what appears to be a flag is not.

 

no difference to me, mind ye, red n white horizontal strips make me look too goddamn chubby

 

Right, but I don't recall the story about them making a flag into a shirt.

[Kimmo]

If an interracial fight breaks out between latinos and American flag wearing students (because of the latters' choice of clothing on Cinco de Mayo), and school officials determine that it can be stopped by having the flag wearing students turn their shirts inside out, do they have the right to make those students do that in order to prevent imminent or further violence?

 

this sounds like a job for scotus.

[ivan]

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

as an aside, i though i recall from my boy scout days that it is in fact disrespectful to turn a flag into a piece of apparel? in other words, wearing a flag patch on a uniform is cool, but making a shirt out a flag or of what appears to be a flag is not.

 

no difference to me, mind ye, red n white horizontal strips make me look too goddamn chubby

 

Right, but I don't recall the story about them making a flag into a shirt.

again, not trying to comment on the story directly. be the shirt made of a flag or merely appearing too (by having the image or pattern a part of the overall design), my understanding was this is traditionally not cool and essentially the equiavalent of dropping one on the ground or wiping yer ass with it or setting it on fire.

 

personally, i look pretty bitch'n in a mao-suit.

[ivan]

If an interracial fight breaks out between latinos and American flag wearing students (because of the latters' choice of clothing on Cinco de Mayo), and school officials determine that it can be stopped by having the flag wearing students turn their shirts inside out, do they have the right to make those students do that in order to prevent imminent or further violence?

sure. in a compulsory attendance environment, the #1 obligation of the state is safety.

 

school uniforms! makes the hot chicks hotter and the ugly ones just bleeeeeeend into the crowd.

[Kimmo]

If an interracial fight breaks out between latinos and American flag wearing students (because of the latters' choice of clothing on Cinco de Mayo), and school officials determine that it can be stopped by having the flag wearing students turn their shirts inside out, do they have the right to make those students do that in order to prevent imminent or further violence?

 

if a fight broke out, then quite evidently the school officials are not in a position to stop it preemptively (because it has already happened).

 

It seems inconceivable that scotus would rule against students wearing an american flag t shirt.

[sobo]

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

as an aside, i though i recall from my boy scout days that it is in fact disrespectful to turn a flag into a piece of apparel? in other words, wearing a flag patch on a uniform is cool, but making a shirt out a flag or of what appears to be a flag is not.

Indeed, making a shirt out of a flag is certainly disrespectful. Wearing a shirt with a flag imprinted upon it is also considered disrepsectful according to the US Flag Code, but legal precedent upholding the right to free speech/freedom of expression has led to flag desecration being protected under the First Amendment, up to and including burning of the flag not for purposes of its disposal.

 

Note that Paragraphs d) and i) of US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8 are regularly violated by members of the general citizenry and merchants/businesses with no consequence.

[tvashtarkatena]

The question remains how to treat the flag on the garment flag at night. Should it be folded and properly stowed? What is washing machine etiquette for a flag?

[sobo]

If an interracial fight breaks out between latinos and American flag wearing students (because of the latters' choice of clothing on Cinco de Mayo), and school officials determine that it can be stopped by having the flag wearing students turn their shirts inside out, do they have the right to make those students do that in order to prevent imminent or further violence?

sure. in a compulsory attendance environment, the #1 obligation of the state is safety.

Tricky, tricky, tricky... Pulling the Safety Card to cover an unwillingness on the part of the school administration to face the larger, more difficult question of equal protection under the law, in this case the students' right to freedom of expression. Kowtowing to perceived pressure to avoid a confrontation and/or violence is not the answer.

 

Therefore, I respectfully object to ivan's response, and submit that the school does not have the right to pre-emptively force the students wearing T-shirts with the American flag upon them to turn their shirts inside out. This is clearly an issue of freedom of expression, the exercise of which is granted by our Constitution to all Americans. The students wearing American flag T-shirts should have all of the same rights and privileges as the Latino students wearing whatever national heritage attire they were wearing, and vice-versa.

 

I'll ask this question a second time: Did anyone force the Latino students to turn their shirts inside out? If the answer to that question is "no", then we have a clear case of discrimination against the American-flag-T-shirted students and the limiting of their First Amendment rights.

[G-spotter]

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

as an aside, i though i recall from my boy scout days that it is in fact disrespectful to turn a flag into a piece of apparel?

 

Abby Hoffmann caught a lot of shit for his American flag shirt in the early 70s.

[sobo]

It seems inconceivable that scotus would rule against students wearing an american flag t shirt.

What would ever...

...make you say that?

[ivan]

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

as an aside, i though i recall from my boy scout days that it is in fact disrespectful to turn a flag into a piece of apparel?

 

Abby Hoffmann caught a lot of shit for his American flag shirt in the early 70s.

sure did, and thus my confusion at how, since then, all super-duper patriotic americans gotta have a flag on their hat, beltbuckle, tit, whatever - especially the teaparty types who bring the total flag custom to its logical extreme.

[ivan]

 

Therefore, I respectfully object to ivan's response

you'd be amazed perhaps then by how astonishingly little i enforce the dress code

 

seriously, what a fucking pain in the ass it is to try to get teenage chicks not to dress like sluts/callgirls/courtesans (all that matters is their income level) and their male counterparts in general to look like fine upstandign members of the community - it's such madness hardly any reasonable person can i think - mostly i just try to keep my eyes focused on that back wall

 

i like school uniforms for a large # of reasons, only 1 of which is the ease of its explanation and enforcement

Edited December 1, 2011 by ivan

[sobo]

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

as an aside, i though i recall from my boy scout days that it is in fact disrespectful to turn a flag into a piece of apparel?

 

Abby Hoffmann caught a lot of shit for his American flag shirt in the early 70s.

sure did, and thus my confusion at how, since then, all super-duper patriotic americans gotta have a flag on their hat, beltbuckle, tit, whatever - especially the teaparty types who bring the total flag custom to its logical extreme.

In 1968, as a response to flag-burning as a form of protest against the Vietnam War, Congress passed the first flag protection act. So Hoffman's "getting the business" in the early 70s was a direct result of the enforcement of this new (at the time) act.

 

In the years since then, the country has seen a lapse in the legal protections for its standard, as the SCOTUS has moved towards allowing more expression of First Amendment rights in manners that would cause the more conservative to cringe. We must look at this progression in the context of time. What was the (patriotic/nationalistic) mood of the country in 1970? What is it today...??

[ivan]

our flag would be way more badass if the strips black n' we had skulls instead of stars

[ivan]

fuck the 1st amendment, the sumbitch who decided to use "fortunate son" as a patriotic soundtrack for a levi-jeans ad deserved summary execution

[sobo]

our flag would be way more badass if the strips black n' we had skulls instead of stars

fuck the 1st amendment, the sumbitch who decided to use "fortunate son" as a patriotic soundtrack for a levi-jeans ad deserved summary execution

Sometimes you just crack me up...

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Heaven forbid that American students in America at an American school should dare to wear a shirt depicted an American flag.

as an aside, i though i recall from my boy scout days that it is in fact disrespectful to turn a flag into a piece of apparel?

 

Abby Hoffmann caught a lot of shit for his American flag shirt in the early 70s.

sure did, and thus my confusion at how, since then, all super-duper patriotic americans gotta have a flag on their hat, beltbuckle, tit, whatever - especially the teaparty types who bring the total flag custom to its logical extreme.

 

Don't forget the ridiculous, obligatory, post-9/11 lapel pin...

[prole]

[ivan]

 

Don't forget the ridiculous, obligatory, post-9/11 lapel pin...

that might pass muster though? guess i gotta look up that link sobo had.

 

what's wierd, though, is to notice how many other countries have picked up this wierd ass tradition!

 

presidents of brazil n' mexico, for example:

even the goddamn canukistanis!

[prole]

Stephen Harper. WTF?