slothrop Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by MtnGoat: I'll repeat one more time, the fact that the culture which supposedly tricks and bamboozles people here into buying these things is not present in many of these nations, the idea that media drives consumption instead of consumers deciding what they value, is shown for the crock that it is. They are perfectly capable of deciding what is counter to their values and not buying it. What I see is someone *other* than these consumers *claiming* these products don't meet their personal values, which they may not, but they obviously do not speak for those purchasing them. Media does indeed drive consumption -- it's called advertising. Products such as Coca-Cola are themselves advertisements (for themselves), and the Coca-Cola brand is internationally known due to media/advertising saturation. If Coke is present, then the culture of Coke is present (to whatever degree). It's utterly ridiculous to claim that a person's values are unaffected by what they consume, see, and hear. If no one knew anything about Coca-Cola, they could not possibly value it. But if they "know" that Coke promises refreshment or a good time with friends or whatever the ad says, then they associate Coke with those things and value it as a proxy. Quote
allthumbs Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 dru, i think you posted to the wrong web site Quote
Necronomicon Posted September 20, 2002 Author Posted September 20, 2002 quote: sycophantic gibberish from TraskFool.. This is all about OIL. Sodom has 10% of it. The USA consumes 25% of the world's energy resources. We need that oil to support our way of life. Get it? Quote
allthumbs Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 It's not entirely about oil you sodbuster, it's about humanity too. Quote
Necronomicon Posted September 20, 2002 Author Posted September 20, 2002 Rarely do I bust sod. Usually I'm bustin' moves. Quote
Necronomicon Posted September 20, 2002 Author Posted September 20, 2002 Or Rhymes.. Bush is a tool Fucking fool He is drool He's not cool Stack the dead Bullet in the head Ocean of red I like eggs Quote
sk Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by trask: It's not entirely about oil you sodbuster, it's about humanity too. I am not taking the time to go back and read what you said before this because this thred is totaly out of controle.... but this little bit, from one of my favorite right wing fascists, is wisdom and if more people could find a nice balence between greed wealth power vs/ humanity, the world as a whole would become a better place to live Quote
Necronomicon Posted September 20, 2002 Author Posted September 20, 2002 Sadly, the strong are not just, as it stands today. Estimates suggest that in excess of 1,000,000 Iraqi children have died since the "end" of "Operation Desert Storm", due to US led embargos. Our tax dollars hard at work. Quote
otherguy Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 Maybe the world will be a better place if we can double that number. Quote
RobBob Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 Necro, now you have become a propaganda tool for Saddam,...what a tool! Quote
allthumbs Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 necro needs to wash his oily turban -- Quote
Dru Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 did you notice how many of that forbes list of 15 richest fictional characters were american? but santa claus, at #1, was Canadian. Quote
MtnGoat Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 First off let me start by saying this has been pretty entertaining thread, and it's fun to have some folks who disagree to this extent having it out, Just felt like making sure during a rowdy and direct thread, you folks knew I appreciate the back and forth going on here. That said, I'll dig in. Had a late 420 recently so you are in for it. j_b I believe: _______________________________________________ Why don't you humor us and explain how say, the social impact of affirmative action (or whatever you prefer) is comparable to that of waging war? ________________________________________________ It's very simple. Presumably you are objecting to the fact I want to pay someone to go point guns at other people, and shoot them if necessary. The rock bottom reason affirmative action functions, is because to enforce it, you pay people to do the exact same thing. Unenforced laws do not do anything. When you make me hire a person I don't want to hire, by law, you are threatening me with the same act you don't want me threatening Iraqis with. You don't want me aiming guns at them, but you support aiming guns at me. You pay for it, you say it's right, you support it, and you support jail time, right? IMO the 3rd ultimate coercion, the loss of control of irreplaceable time from an individuals life. Made possible by the 2nd level coercion, the physical coercion and bodily threat of men with guns who come to take me. The ultimate coercion of course, is death, the backer of all the lower coercions. Just like atoms make up molecules, the threat we back to enforce laws makes up the legal system at it's rawest base. So I find it comparable to say you want to pay people to aim guns at people, for whatever reason, just as I do, for others. I pay my taxes like you, vote for coercion, just like you, which supports it in the collective manner which democracy indicates. My support of war is every bit the level as your support of affirmative action. The reasons for each differ, but the raw implementation, where the rubber meets the road, is the fear of what the men with guns will do when they come for you. Coercion is what drives laws on all levels. If we cannot admit this openly, we cannot examine how the systems we coexist with really operate either. I recognize the evils of coercion, the loss of basic liberty. I also recognize the damnable need for it in some cases. I realize the violates the purity of principle one hopes for. This is why I judge each case of social "good" by the fact that I will only get that "good", by aiming guns at the people around me. I don't like it, and seek to do so as sparingly as possible. Which is unfortunate,as in this case, it is you who stand aiming a gun at me on this issue of AA, while I refuse to aim one at you for it. I agree with it's intent and act that way in my life with what I control and do, but I cannot be so sure of myself I'll threaten others to act the same. Wars are a different case for me. I know we disagree on this issue, but I believe there are people who have very bad intent towards us. It could be many, it could be few, but I damned well know they are there, they've shown me they are there, they *say* they are there, what more do I need? I am not obligated by my aversion to coercion to allow people to come and kill me. With this in mind, I allow myself to support my proxies in going forth to use those damned guns for me. For me to support this by proxy, I must be convinced I am in need of bodily protection from violence. For you to support your armed men by proxy, you need to feel that your moral standpoint on hiring overrides anyone elses personal feelings, control of their actions, decisions. l_b_____________________________________________ are you sure that volunteerism is the only thing in play here? funny how our military is not representative of all socio-economic strata of society. _______________________________________________ Are we operating from an unknown standard where we assume all races sexes or groups or religions will randomly distibute themselves perfectly into every area of life? If there is no draft, people are entering voluntarily. The inducements of differing kinds of lifes, decisions, values, etc on any one person and these pressures must be borne, by them. Sure, a demographic represents something about those choosing to enter it and the forces on them exterally. But there is no causality to show discrimination in the entry process. _______________________________________________ If I go up to a cop and tell him I'm going to shoot someone at the restauarant, do they have to wait until I do? Don't I have free speech? __________________________________________ L_B: if you really think this is what they said you have problems with reading" This is not what I think they said. What I thought you were saying is acting on peoples free speech when it is threatening is oppression or something. __________________________ me: "nor freedom from investigation if you threaten people with harm" l_b: "again do you have evidence of this?you keep making my case about your lack of steadfastness in sustaining your proclaimed values" you have lost me now, evidence of what? If you think this indicates something is wrong, we do not understand each other here. When did making threatening statements become protected to the extent they cannot be investigated? l_b_____________________________________________ you mean calling the cops whenever a strange character approches me amounts to "a modicum of caution" _______________________________________________ Who said anything about cops? You don't pay closer attention to someone, avoid eye contact, etc? talk about hyperbolic leaps! l_b____________________________________________ yeah right, we all know kids want to go to McD because they like the food (sarcasm). That's also why they give away toys, have playrooms and market their product with a clown _________________________________________________ They go because they want to. They filter what McDonalds offers them through the decisions of their parents and all decide why to go to McDonalds. The people at Mcdonalds *also* in a free world and are perfectly within their rights to use non coercive means to convince people they want mcdonalds. Politicians create needs for people too, and activist groups generate a need for their ideas, and so on. The world is a mass of influences all offering things. However a want or need is generated, as long as coercion is absent it's fair ground. I am not qualified to judge the wants of others, they can do that for themselves. They have their own values I do not know, they have their own logic I do not know, they have their lives I do not know. Quote
MtnGoat Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 "so if I follow your argument, invading Iraq to take out Saddam (and killing 1000's of muslims in the process) will diminish the threat of having a small group of muslim extremists (who are still pissed off about the crusades) getting inside the US?" No, it will diminish the chances the ones who do inevitably get in will have nukes, nerve gas, and bioweapons. I do not tie 911 to the Saddam issue by causality, I think he probably had a hand in it, but he's slick so I can't prove it. Fine. The real issue is these nutcakes, are out there right now. Saddam is the most likely source of strategic weapons. Wether or not he uses them is not a primary concern, because IMO he is enough of a bastard to wait years on end and *then* slip one out to be used by someone else. Given the depravity shown in the 911 attacks, I defy anyone to tell me that wouldn't have been a much larger weapon had they only had one. I support taking out the most likely armory for precisely the people who do intend to kill us. Related to 911, but not because I think Saddam did it, because he is *known* to train and arm Islamic radicals. Quote
MtnGoat Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 "Media does indeed drive consumption -- it's called advertising." Sure it does, but it operates by generating want or need. Rational minds control most want and need. We must acknowledge human rational thinking and self knowledge that allows conscious control of wants by subordinating them to morals. If we wanted everything we saw advertised we'd go crazy. Even seeing something we don't have now but know about, like your buddies nice bike, generates a certain amount of want. I control my morals. I control how I view advertisements. People sell things in every culture from the most primitive to the most advanced. Everyone knows how to deal with it. From a hawker on a side street in bangladesh to that bastard in the used car dept, humans the world over know and every age, know about salesmen in any form. " Products such as Coca-Cola are themselves advertisements (for themselves), and the Coca-Cola brand is internationally known due to media/advertising saturation. If Coke is present, then the culture of Coke is present (to whatever degree)." Now that's good marketing. Is this an observation by you, or a call to action? What about pocket knives? Lighters? Buttwipe? Radios? Kitchen utensils? Are you aware of how much consumer goods flow into these places? Are we claiming people don't recognize these wants no matter where they live and they are tricked by adverts too? So they want a coke...hell I want a coke, I love em! It's about the world where cool things go places people want em. There's nothing like a cold coke on a hot day, get to your rig *burning* with exhaustion, rip open the cooler and pull one out of the ice..... with that weird sizzle and bite as an icy fizzy gulp races down! The guy who mixed up the first one has brought a lot of "aahs" after a chug to the world, and I think that's a good thing. So common Pakistanis like it while the mullah rages, so what? I like em, if they like em I can't see that as a big deal. "It's utterly ridiculous to claim that a person's values are unaffected by what they consume, see, and hear." I don't. I claim they control their lives and judge everything they see, don't you? "If no one knew anything about Coca-Cola, they could not possibly value it." I believe I addressed that. Before they advertised electricity, I wouldn't have wanted it. Before they invented coke, no one wanted it, now they have and people want it, and get their wants satisfied. Again, how this is bad I don't see it. Ok, new things generate new wants...so? "But if they "know" that Coke promises refreshment or a good time with friends or whatever the ad says, then they associate Coke with those things and value it as a proxy." They advertise fun and associate coke with fun by proxy, but hey, that's advertising. coke promises refreshment, and if you like the stuff, it can freakin deliver. Hit the desert with me next spring and I'll show you a refreshing coke. [ 09-20-2002, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ] Quote
MtnGoat Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 if anyone is interested in continuing this and other bullshit in person over a beer, a couple of folks and I are going on a 4x4 car camp sat/sun. High ridgelines (6500+) on east slope. Deal is preston park n ride 8amish and on to Yakima, then SW 30 miles. cool people, great views. If interested send me a pm. [ 09-20-2002, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ] Quote
RobBob Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 How do you like my new offensive avatar? The man imortalized by the CIA... Quote
slothrop Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by MtnGoat: "Media does indeed drive consumption -- it's called advertising." Sure it does, but it operates by generating want or need. Rational minds control most want and need. We must acknowledge human rational thinking and self knowledge that allows conscious control of wants by subordinating them to morals. If we wanted everything we saw advertised we'd go crazy. Even seeing something we don't have now but know about, like your buddies nice bike, generates a certain amount of want. Sure, humans are capable of rational thinking, but surely you must realize that people do not always take the most rational action. Wives don't leave their abusive husbands, for example, and smokers keep smoking, even though either of those behaviors can result in a severely shortened lifespan (and finally, "the ultimate coercion" ). quote: Originally posted by MtnGoat: I control my morals. I control how I view advertisements. People sell things in every culture from the most primitive to the most advanced. Everyone knows how to deal with it. From a hawker on a side street in bangladesh to that bastard in the used car dept, humans the world over know and every age, know about salesmen in any form. But you don't control your morals! Maybe you are talking about adults here, adults with a particularly focused bent on controlling every thought in their heads. But first let's examine the other extreme: children. Children certainly do not control the formation of their value structure. At the very least, we generally refuse to allow them that control, for fear of the irrational decisions they will make. People can make choices to have certain values, but in the end it's action that matters, and certainly the anecdotal evidence of the futility of reason in the face of extreme circumstances (hereafter referred to as "world history") destroys your concept of a perfectly rational humanity! Shit, just last week I hit the snooze bar too many times and wound up late to a commitment, even though every rational moral fiber in me raged at the thought of being late. quote: Originally posted by MtnGoat: What about pocket knives? Lighters? Buttwipe? Radios? Kitchen utensils? Are you aware of how much consumer goods flow into these places? Are we claiming people don't recognize these wants no matter where they live and they are tricked by adverts too? So they want a coke...hell I want a coke, I love em! It's about the world where cool things go places people want em. There's nothing like a cold coke on a hot day, get to your rig *burning* with exhaustion, rip open the cooler and pull one out of the ice..... with that weird sizzle and bite as an icy fizzy gulp races down! Now *that's* good marketing! I'm not saying advertising is "tricking" anyone (although it can sometimes be deceiving), but it does it's job of associating otherwise absent values with mundane products like Coke. And advertising is designed to be a prominent stimulus for people, whether they intend to view it or not. It *wants* to grab your attention, and when a person's attention is tugged at, something registers in the brain. There's no escaping a stimulus once it's experienced, just like you can't deny the bullet that shot you just because you knew it was coming and decided you didn't like it. quote: Originally posted by MtnGoat: "It's utterly ridiculous to claim that a person's values are unaffected by what they consume, see, and hear." I don't. I claim they control their lives and judge everything they see, don't you? No. My brain makes my decisions, obviously, but my consciousness is not in control over all of those decisions. I do not choose when to breathe, but I do it regularly. Trask does not control his abnormal desire for chickens, but somehow it is still there and still causes him to act . I fear this will soon degenerate into a discussion on the theory of consciousness. Um, we were talking about bombing Iraq with Coke, right? Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 so...you are saying that their hate is justified cause they have to look at a couple o coke ads everyonce in a while? sheesh... that should make us all manic depressive psychotics...i heard that we see 10,000 ads a day... enough with the excuses...hitler was just rtying to preserve his "lifestyle of choice" and look what happened to him... osama is purporting the same bloody lifestyle where he kills all that dont conform to his aryan...i mean strict devout islamic lifestyle... Quote
Paco Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 "Deserve death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien The Lord of The Rings Quote
iain Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 900 posts of worthless drivel. That combined with my original login from a year or 2 ago puts me over the 1 grand top. [ 09-20-2002, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: iain ] Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 this is a test of my new offensive (and consequently lethal ) avatar image... Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 [ 09-20-2002, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Fence Sitter ] Quote
iain Posted September 20, 2002 Posted September 20, 2002 This is a test to see if my avatar resembles bin laden and is thus potentially offensive... ppppage top, whatever that means. [ 09-20-2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: iain ] Quote
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