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[j_b]

perhaps someone could enlighten me: what is the reason for wanting to drown this discussion? If I am mistaken on your intent please feel free to explain.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Opening an AutoCAD 2000 format file.

 

Resolve Xref "A-TYPEIa": C:\WINDOWS\Desktop\Projects\Sun Ridge

200240\A-TYPEIa.dwg

"A-TYPEIa" loaded.

 

Resolve Xref "A-A1": C:\WINDOWS\Desktop\Projects\Sun Ridge 200240\A-A1.dwg

"A-A1" loaded.

 

Resolve Xref "A-TYPEIb": P:\SUNRIDGE\A-TYPEIb.dwg

"A-TYPEIb" loaded.

 

Resolve Xref "A-BD-001": C:\WINDOWS\Desktop\Projects\Sun Ridge

200240\A-BD-001.dwg

"A-BD-001" loaded.

Regenerating model.

LOADING PROGRAM...

 

Type CHECKSPELL to spell check text in attributes. EXCHPROP loaded.

CHT command loaded.

XLIST.LSP loaded. Enter "xlist" or "-xlist" to use.

AutoCAD bonus utilities loaded.

 

Type < MSZOOM > to execute.

AutoCAD menu utilities loaded.

Command:

Command:

Command: qselect

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 404 found

 

Select objects:

 

48 item(s) selected.

 

Command: Specify opposite corner:

Command:

Command:

Command: _copyclip 49 found

 

Command: *Cancel*

 

Command: *Cancel*

 

Command: '_pan

Press ESC or ENTER to exit, or right-click to display shortcut menu.

 

Command:

Command: *Cancel*

 

Command:

Command:

Command: _copyclip

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 218 found

 

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 6 found, 4 removed, 214 total

 

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 4 found, 3 removed, 211 total

 

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 4 found, 3 removed, 208 total

 

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 4 found, 208 total

 

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 2 found, 2 removed, 206 total

 

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 2 found, 2 removed, 204 total

 

Select objects:

 

Command: '_zoom

Specify corner of window, enter a scale factor (nX or nXP), or

[All/Center/Dynamic/Extents/Previous/Scale/Window] <real time>: _e

Command: '_pan

Press ESC or ENTER to exit, or right-click to display shortcut menu.

 

Command: l

LINE Specify first point:

Specify next point or [undo]: *Cancel*

 

Command: l

LINE Specify first point:

Specify next point or [undo]:

Specify next point or [undo]:

 

Command:

Command:

Command: layfrz

Initializing...

AutoCAD Bonus Layer Tools Loaded.

Options/Undo/<Pick an object on the layer to be FROZEN>:

Layer A-ROOF-MEDM has been frozen.

Options/Undo/<Pick an object on the layer to be FROZEN>:

 

Command:

Command:

Command: _copyclip

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 51 found

 

Select objects: Specify opposite corner: 51 found (3 duplicate), 99 total

 

Select objects:

 

Command:

Command:

Command: _

Command: -layer

Current layer: "BEAMS"

Enter an option

[?/Make/Set/New/ON/OFF/Color/Ltype/LWeight/Plot/Freeze/Thaw/LOck/Unlock/stAte]:

thaW

Enter name list of layer(s) to thaw: * Enter an option

[?/Make/Set/New/ON/OFF/Color/Ltype/LWeight/Plot/Freeze/Thaw/LOck/Unlock/stAte]:

Regenerating model.

 

Command: Specify opposite corner:

Command: e

ERASE 1 found

 

Command: *Cancel*

 

Command: *Cancel*

 

Command: <Switching to: Layout1>

Regenerating layout.

Regenerating model - caching viewports.

 

Command: *Cancel*

 

Command: *Cancel*

 

Command: <Switching to: Model>

Restoring cached viewports.

 

Command:

Automatic save to C:\windows\TEMP\S2_1_1_9087.sv$ ...

 

Command: Updating Indexes for block *MODEL_SPACE

Done.

'_pan

Press ESC or ENTER to exit, or right-click to display shortcut menu.

 

Command: '_dimstyle

Command: '_style

Command:

Command:

Command: _-layer

 

Current layer: "BEAMS"

Enter an option

[?/Make/Set/New/ON/OFF/Color/Ltype/LWeight/Plot/Freeze/Thaw/LOck/Unlock/stAte]:

s

 

Enter layer name to make current or <select object>: dimension

Enter an option

[?/Make/Set/New/ON/OFF/Color/Ltype/LWeight/Plot/Freeze/Thaw/LOck/Unlock/stAte]:

 

Command: dimlinear

Specify first extension line origin or <select object>:

Specify second extension line origin:

Specify dimension line location or

[Mtext/Text/Angle/Horizontal/Vertical/Rotated]:

Dimension text = 12'-0"

Command: '_dimstyle

Command:

Command:

 

** STRETCH **

Specify stretch point or [base point/Copy/Undo/eXit]:

Command: *Cancel*

 

 

Busy day.

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by j_b:

perhaps someone could enlighten me: what is the reason for wanting to drown this discussion? If I am mistaken on your intent please feel free to explain.

---

we're hastening the time until the next PAGETOP

[MtnGoat]

So j_b, I meant to ask, when you listed those quotes from me, what was your intention? Is it your contention there is some hypocrasy in my position I am not aware of, or??

[Muir_on_Saturday]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MtnGoat:

some hypocrasy in my position I am not aware of??

---

omfg

[allthumbs]

DFA I read your computer geek shit and all I have to say is "sit on it".

[j_b]

quote:

---

we're hastening the time until the next PAGETOP

---

you are pulling my leg aren't you?

[Muir_on_Saturday]

this thread couldn't be as big as Muir on Saturday if it tried.

 

Muir on Saturday has spoken.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

"DFA I read your computer geek shit and all I have to say is "sit on it"."

 

It ain't computer geek shit, fool. Pay closer attention and you might figure it out. And quit cruising for DFA; he ain't interested in man tools, tool.

[allthumbs]

Fine with me. Henceforth I will ignore your silly sophomoric posts. I drop a brown coil on you from great height.

[MtnGoat]

Muir obviously has a comment, perhaps he could spell it out for us slower folk!

[j_b]

quote:

---

MtnGoat wrote: So j_b, I meant to ask, when you listed those quotes from me, what was your intention? Is it your contention there is some hypocrasy in my position I am not aware of, or??

---

hypocrisy is one way to put it but the least one can say is that expounding on the virtues of democracy, freedom to think and choose for oneself, and the basis of guilt is not consistent with judging someone on appearances and truncated discourse. I quoted you to show that you did all the above in the course of this thread.

[Thinker]

[sexual_chocolate]

Of course during an attack itself, one might defend oneself. Someone jumps me on the corner, I'll defend myself, if I can, and depending what the situation presents to me (I was held up at gun-point once. Didn't have much of a chance to defend myself!).

 

But after I've been jumped (or held up), my immediate response wouldn't necessarily be a movement towards revenge (it wasn't after i had a gun to my head)! Now, if the perpetrator was planning to jump me again (Please mr., don't jump me again!), which is kinda what we're facing now, I sure as hell would want to find out what the cat was all about, damn. I wouldn't go shooting up his whole family, thinking that would solve the problem. Everyone's got relatives (we're ALL related) and I know my violence would come back to me, especially if it's the self-righteous kind (Read: GW Bush). I can't CONTROL the world; no one can, although we try. So hopefully I would have the humility to go beyond my anger and pain and hurt and actually try to talk. I know this isn't a very popular position, but that would hopefully be my response.

 

Our leadership's indignant self-righteousness makes for great pomp and fanfare, but I'm afraid it does nothing to secure our future. I fully believe that it will make the world a much more dangerous place for years to come, ESPECIALLY if we want to travel (plus, you CAN'T keep "them foreigners" out. Look at Israel, for god's sake, and they are a TINY country of 5 mil).

 

[ 09-18-2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: sexual chocolate ]

[MtnGoat]

"the basis of guilt is not consistent with judging someone on appearances and truncated discourse. I quoted you to show that you did all the above in the course of this thread."

 

I take it you are referring to the commentary on those folks in the diner, so.....

 

It depends on how you define guilt. I did not say they should be in jail, I made no statements that is it not their right to speak as they wish, I didn't say they were "guilty" of anything in particular, though I will claim now they were guilty (in the sense of being responsible for their actions) of using very poor judgement.

 

At such time I maintain they are guilty of a crime of some kind on the basis of appearance or statements, I would have to agree with you. Since what they did is not a crime and they are not being prosecuted, on appearance or statements, the only "guilt" I can see here is a person who thought she heard something very bad and took action. Am I to understand if you heard what she claims to have heard, you would just walk away and take your chances?

 

Besides, like it or not, appearances count in this world. I have a hard time accepting that no one should ever pay attention to appearances, because we all judge others by appearance in all kinds of ways, every day.

 

Wether or not we use personal standards and biases to judge a particular appearance in one way or another is one angle, but the fact that we do so nonetheless is merely a survivial instinct which remains valuable to this day.

 

[ 09-18-2002, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: MtnGoat ]

[MtnGoat]

"But after I've been jumped (or held up), my immediate response wouldn't necessarily be a movement towards revenge (it wasn't after i had a gun to my head)!"

 

I'm not what you think my reasons are for making sure someone such as Saddam does not obtain nukes, but revenge is not one of them.

 

"I sure as hell would want to find out what the cat was all about, damn."

 

In his case we already know what he's all about. He's left the evidence of it for years, written statements, actions, atrocities. I find it difficult to believe anyone could feel we don't know enough of what he's about.

 

"I wouldn't go shooting up his whole family, thinking that would solve the problem."

 

I'm not sure who is proposing shooting up his entire family.

 

"So hopefully I would have the humility to go beyond my anger and pain and hurt and actually try to talk. I know this isn't a very popular position, but that would hopefully be my response."

 

We have talked and talked, we have talked for 11 years now. At what point does one decide the other player is using that talk to gain time to do what your talk is trying to prevent? At what point does one begin to suspect that someone who cares so little for his own family he has them shot, is only talking for *your* benefit while he seeks advantage while you feel like you're talking?

 

I have no problem with diplomatic solutions where they are possible. What I want to know is when the decision is made that the other side in a deal is using the talking to stall for time to gain a military advantage? Is 11 years long enough?

 

"I fully believe that it will make the world a much more dangerous place for years to come, ESPECIALLY if we want to travel"

 

Allowing fanatics who have sworn to kill you, to exist does not make life safer for you. Capitulation to their demands, does not make life safer for you. They hate us because they hate the west, modernity, and our plurality, and no amount of talk from us is going to make them disregard what they consider holy instructions from their god.

 

We know these things not because I claim they think them, but because *they* tell us this, they themselves. Do you not think they know better what they hate and why, since they are the ones telling us why they hate us?

 

"(plus, you CAN'T keep "them foreigners" out. Look at Israel, for god's sake, and they are a TINY country of 5 mil)."

 

You are correct. That is why one does not try to keep "them foreigners" out, one goes to the source and fixes the problem. This does not mean military means necessarily.

 

When they claim they are poor because of us, it must be shown that they are poor because their rulers keep them poor. They have no rights because their religion does not recognize the rights of individuals, only their direct and specific obligation to serve God with every thought and action, no matter how trivial. The Christian religion grew to include the idea of free will, Islam denies free will in all it's forms as a form of decadence.

 

These root issues shape the problems we are facing, combined with poor practices in US foreign policy in the past and present. We can and should change our policies, but that is only part of the problem, the flawed views of a region which is stuck in the 14th century is a much deeper one.

 

They have a right to their own beliefs, if they wish to serve Allah as they have been, they will have to come to grips with the idea that if they intend to do so while not recognizing modern ideas, they will remain poor and backwards.

 

If they wish to oppress their women and each other and call that justice, I disagree and feel bad for them but it's their homeland.

 

When however they come to kill us, kill *innocent* people by design and intent as primary targets, this will not be permitted, ever. There can be no coexistance with this idea because coexistence takes two and they do not recognize any innocents among infidels. Whatever mistakes we have made, and the list is long, murdering innocents here will not be tolerated.

 

The modern world only works because of it's plurality and acceptance of same, and if this is not to be accepted the complex economic models we have will not function. They (the most fundanmentalist factions) must choose between service of their classical views and entry into a different age, because they cannot have both a complex economy and ideas which prohibit this from occurring.

[Fence_Sitter]

the thing you are missing when you say that we are 'retaliating against his relatives' is that they want us to take out osama... they do not want him in control... that point is being lost... very similar to nazi germany... he is purifying his race...not genetically (like hitler) but socially...by killing dissidents....

[sexual_chocolate]

I appreciate your post, and your opinions, and I think you present the complexity of the situation well. I find myself frustrated at times, thinking about some of the particulars, and the extremes that are represented by the different groups involved.

 

I also think we need to be careful as we think about these things, and try to understand how and why there might be so much anger directed at us, specifically.

 

Could it be because the average middle-easterner feels powerless within their political structures, and then sees US officials shaking hands with their oppressors (the Sauds)?

 

Or the historical alliance the US has had with Israel, always favoring them in any dispute within the region (and arming them to the teeth, with equipment then used to kill arabs)?

 

Perhaps it's the talk of Democracy, but then no such talk when it serves our interests, such as the support of Musharref, a military dictator, or the Sauds again, or the tacit approval of an overthrow of a DEMOCRATICALLY elected president, Hugo Chavez? (The list is long for this one! You know this too. I'll just list a couple.)

 

We can't gain too much respect with tactics like this, don't you think? Seriously please, answer this one.

 

None of this excuses any acts that have been directed towards us, but I think it goes a long way towards explaining them!

 

BTW, I read a really interesting stat recently: During the early 90's (between 91 and 94, if I remember right), when such great efforts were made by both sides (Israel and Palestine) in the middle east, when humility and decency replaced anger and hyperbole, that region experienced the LOWEST rate of terror bombings in the WORLD. Arafat and Rabin, shaking hands! It was a time of great hope, for both sides. (Opinion polls have shown that both sides want peace, with the number going down during periods of violence. How predictable. Again, violence breeding violence.) I think this example illustrates my point rather well, that it's only by stepping out of the cycle of violence that we'll create a safer world in the long run.

 

I know I've stepped a bit into the territory of sound bites a bit; I apologize. But my sentiment and reasoning is sincere, and one that I believe in. I think an objective analysis would indicate that violence breeds violence, anger breeds anger. But, I have to go. Ciao.

[Off_White]

Hah, I was just reading Mountain Goat while listening to The Mountain Goats!

 

GOING TO GEORGIA

The most remarkable thing about coming home to you

Is the feeling of being in motion again.

Its the most extraordinary thing in the world.

I have two big hands and a heart pumping blood

And a 1967 colt 45 with a busted safety catch

The world shines

As I cross the Macon County Line

Going to Georgia

 

The most remarkable thing about you standing in the doorway

Is that its you, and that you’re standing in the doorway and you smile

As you ease the gun from my hand

And I’m frozen with joy, right where I stand

The world throws it’s light underneath your hair

Forty miles from Atlanta, this is nowhere

Going to Georgia

 

The world shines

As I cross the Macon County Line

Going to Georgia

 

Mountain Goats rock, even if they are just one guy with an acoustic guitar.

[Uncle_Tricky]

Trapped in spray? Float and carry a snafflehound!

 

Avoid rapid panicky movements at all costs if you fall into spray such as a thread of this nature. Lie on your back and spread your arms as you would to float in water.

 

Safer or saner companions can use branches or material like canvas as a platform to get nearer to you. A rope is always handy for the extraction of spray victims.

 

If you are on your own you need to have a sturdy snafflehound with you for leverage. To get out by yourself, you should put the snafflehound perpedicular to the spray and pull yourself over it so that it is beneath your back.

 

You should stop sinking after a while - spray is much denser that salt water and humans can easily float in it - at which point you should slide the snafflehound beneath your hips and slowly raise each leg out of the spray.

 

Once out, roll slowly over the spray onto a less treacherous surface.

 

Note: This spray extraction technique is currently under boycott by the People for Ethical Treatment of Snafflehounds (PETS).

 

[ 09-18-2002, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Uncle Tricky ]

[vegetablebelay]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

(I was held up at gun-point once. Didn't have much of a chance to defend myself!).

 

But after I've been jumped....

---

And hence the name "Sexual Chocolate" was bestowed upon him.....

 

[ 09-18-2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: vegetablebelay ]

[karen]

some how I don't se it as so simple. black and white. I never get into these kinds of discussions bcause no one wins For the first time since I can remember after last year did I question my antiwar beliefs.. But It just isn't that simple.. black and white evil vs. good.. all I can ask is try to see what isn't said in the main stream media.. try to find out what is really happening

[Fence_Sitter]

AMEN

[RobBob]

If MtnGoat doesn't ease up with the long-winded rhetoric, I'm gonna change my position and become a liberal democrat.

[MtnGoat]

these issues cannot be discussed by sound bite and pithy paragraphs. In a free society you are of course free to not read a bit of my long winded posts.