prole Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Insolvent basket cases will opt for default primarily by inflation, non-basket cases lean more towards benefit cuts. You're referring to the banks here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Insolvent basket cases will opt for default primarily by inflation, non-basket cases lean more towards benefit cuts. You're referring to the banks here? The reason why Ireland's a basket case? No, no, of course not. They just need more tax cuts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 Ireland actually has a fairly productive private sector that can deliver production that equals or exceeds what the country consumes. Not the case with the PIIGS. Ireland chose to bail out its banks by assuming all of the debts that the banks accumulated by making retarded loans for the purchase of wildly overvalued properties with money they borrowed from the Germans. Ireland can restructure it's way out of insolvency. Greece is a structurally insolvent basket case that will never be able to generate the output required to satisfy the population's consumption demands without massive injections of money made elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 You guys are driving me fucking crazy. Do you just make this shit up, or what? JayB, are you an expert on international finance on the side, or do you just play one on the internet? SPURT SPURT SPURT SPURT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 WELFARE QUEENS!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I wonder how many times JayB has been to Greece? He knows EVERYTHING ABOUT IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Ireland actually has a fairly productive private sector that can deliver production that equals or exceeds what the country consumes. Not the case with the PIIGS. PIIGS = Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain. The governments done in with debt as are private households and once again everyone's leaving Ireland to find work. Just because they are ideologically appealing to you with low taxes and crap services doesn't mean they are actually healthy. As a household debt to disposable income ratio of 190% would show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 PIIGS - taking pedantism to a whole new level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 You guys are driving me fucking crazy. Do you just make this shit up, or what? JayB, are you an expert on international finance on the side, or do you just play one on the internet? SPURT SPURT SPURT SPURT! I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SO YOU MUST NOT EITHER! HI KEVBONE, LET'S BE FRIENDS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 You guys are driving me fucking crazy. Do you just make this shit up, or what? JayB, are you an expert on international finance on the side, or do you just play one on the internet? SPURT SPURT SPURT SPURT! Yes. I'm making it all up. When the yields on the bonds that Greece is trying to sell spike, it's because I am speculating about their fiscal situation on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 You guys are driving me fucking crazy. Do you just make this shit up, or what? JayB, are you an expert on international finance on the side, or do you just play one on the internet? SPURT SPURT SPURT SPURT! Yes. I'm making it all up. When the yields on the bonds that Greece is trying to sell spike, it's because I am speculating about their fiscal situation on the internet. If you were really smart you'd catch references to the Big Lebowski, laugh, and be cool. But you are just talking out of your ass obviously, and don't know anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 Ireland actually has a fairly productive private sector that can deliver production that equals or exceeds what the country consumes. Not the case with the PIIGS. PIIGS = Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain. The governments done in with debt as are private households and once again everyone's leaving Ireland to find work. Just because they are ideologically appealing to you with low taxes and crap services doesn't mean they are actually healthy. As a household debt to disposable income ratio of 190% would show. Should have read "rest of the PIIGS" The key difference between Ireland and the rest is that their debt ratio exploded as a result of a stupid decision to bail out their banks with the national treasury, not because of long term structural deficits. In one case, you wipe out the one-off debts and there's no gap between taxes and expenditures to worry about. In the other case the gap between taxes and expenditures opens up again immediately after the old debt is wiped out, and keeps growing indefinitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Ireland actually has a fairly productive private sector that can deliver production that equals or exceeds what the country consumes. Not the case with the PIIGS. PIIGS = Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain. The governments done in with debt as are private households and once again everyone's leaving Ireland to find work. Just because they are ideologically appealing to you with low taxes and crap services doesn't mean they are actually healthy. As a household debt to disposable income ratio of 190% would show. Should have read "rest of the PIIGS" The key difference between Ireland and the rest is that their debt ratio exploded as a result of a stupid decision to bail out their banks with the national treasury, not because of long term structural deficits. In one case, you wipe out the one-off debts and there's no gap between taxes and expenditures to worry about. In the other case the gap between taxes and expenditures opens up again immediately after the old debt is wiped out, and keeps growing indefinitely. The solution is simple Jay: tax the richest 500 Greeks fairly! quod erat demonstrandum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 It goes to show if you speak in broad enough generalities, you can hide your ideological dispositions and political allegiances indefinitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 In one case, you wipe out the one-off debts and there's no gap between taxes and expenditures to worry about. In the other case the gap between taxes and expenditures opens up again immediately after the old debt is wiped out, and keeps growing indefinitely The government had pledged to cut spending and increase taxes in 2012 to the tune of 3.6 billion euros in the latest in a long line of austerity plans as it strives to get its budget deficit to under 3 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) by 2015. ...... Ireland is aiming to squeeze its deficit, currently the worst in the euro zone, to 10 percent of GDP this year from nearly 12 percent in 2010. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/04/uk-ireland-economy-budget-idUKTRE7633J020110704 emphasis mine press date of 12 days ago regarding the Irish budget. Clearly they are better off than the rest though because.......... they are better than the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 You guys are driving me fucking crazy. Do you just make this shit up, or what? JayB, are you an expert on international finance on the side, or do you just play one on the internet? SPURT SPURT SPURT SPURT! I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SO YOU MUST NOT EITHER! HI KEVBONE, LET'S BE FRIENDS! Hey, if I was an expert on the subject of European and International finance like Jay here such to the degree that I had all of the answers to a complex economic situation like Greece and Ireland, I certainly would be doing something more meaningful and positive with my ideas than just spurting off about it on cascadeclimbers. But, whatever. Carry on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Hey, if I was an expert on the subject of European and International finance like Jay here such to the degree that I had all of the answers to a complex economic situation like Greece and Ireland, I certainly would be doing something more meaningful and positive with my ideas than just spurting off about it on cascadeclimbers. Funny how he bothers you so much but the other besserwissers don't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Because they crack jokes, at least. Jay, you're sooooooo serious. I give the other J shit for this, too, you know. Imagine having all of the answers to single-handedly turn around the fortunes of an entire country, but doing nothing about it but pontificate on cc.com Gimme a break. It's a complicated situation. None of you have a fucking clue. Does anybody? Even people who know a lot more about this subject then you guys manage to disagree -- it stands to reason that perhaps maybe you DON'T have all the answers. But if you're gonna go on and on and fucking on at LEAST BE FUCKING FUNNY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 You guys are driving me fucking crazy. Do you just make this shit up, or what? JayB, are you an expert on international finance on the side, or do you just play one on the internet? SPURT SPURT SPURT SPURT! I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SO YOU MUST NOT EITHER! HI KEVBONE, LET'S BE FRIENDS! Hey, if I was an expert on the subject of European and International finance like Jay here such to the degree that I had all of the answers to a complex economic situation like Greece and Ireland, I certainly would be doing something more meaningful and positive with my ideas than just spurting off about it on cascadeclimbers. The statement following "would" is orders of magnitude less likely to be true in any reality that you will ever inhabit than the statement following the "if." So where does that leave you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Hey, if I was an expert on the subject of European and International finance like Jay here such to the degree that I had all of the answers to a complex economic situation like Greece and Ireland, I certainly would be doing something more meaningful and positive with my ideas than just spurting off about it on cascadeclimbers. The statement following "would" is orders of magnitude less likely to be true in any reality that you will ever inhabit than the statement following the "if." So where does that leave you? That's more like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Because they crack jokes, at least. Jay, you're sooooooo serious. I give the other J shit for this, too, you know. Imagine having all of the answers to single-handedly turn around the fortunes of an entire country, but doing nothing about it but pontificate on cc.com Gimme a break. It's a complicated situation. None of you have a fucking clue. Does anybody? Even people who know a lot more about this subject then you guys manage to disagree -- it stands to reason that perhaps maybe you DON'T have all the answers. But if you're gonna go on and on and fucking on at LEAST BE FUCKING FUNNY! Firstly, some situations are not that fucking complicated. Getting out of the clusterfuck is a different matter, of course. Secondly, Jay is just offering his opinion on a subject he is interested in and reads about. He may not crack jokes but at least he's respectful and not a fucking psychotic freak like his meme-twin. Doing something about it? I think the point Jay, Prole and others are making is that Greece's fucked up situation contains parallels to our own fucked up situation, and we need to learn from it and do something here or end up like Greece. Of course we've just rehashed the same shit over and over again in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Firstly, some situations are not that fucking complicated. And if you make shit up they are even less complicated! Clearly the responsible thing to do is borrow against future earnings instead of raising taxes! yay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/obama-greece-pressconference-debtceiling/2011/07/15/id/403721 hahahhahaha....we aren't greece? wtf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 liberal media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Best piece I've read all week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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