j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Is there a lesson in all of this? Why, yes there is... If you sport a Portlandia-style Big Beard and finally want to tuck into some noogs after all those years of being stuck talkin' home brewing with your buds: Move to Pakistan and snag a hot 29 year old. You might still have to lose the kilt, though. what drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Here's a person who firmly believes in the concept of human perfection - that 'the other side' is capable of pulling off world-wide hoaxes on the rest of humanity which, apparently, is somewhat less than perfect in that same person's view. right, Bush didn't eventually get ~90% approval rating to attack Iraq based on a tissue of lies. OBL and AQ weren't manipulatively used to strengthen the security state. You have the selective memory of a homer; you wouldn't have reacted this way if this had happened >6 years into the Bush presidency. The basic, unfulfilled emotional need here becomes obvious. The theorist's need to be seen as perfect - smarter, 'ahead of the herd', and all that. silly pop-psychology the hard core conspiracy theorist are you claiming the American public has not been the object of spy-ops by its own military/government? Pathetic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The saddest irony of it is how politically debilitating this line of activity really is. Why bother organizing or engaging when the foe is a monolithic, omniscient power ten steps ahead of any possible maneuver? Why bother addressing the obvious, visible manifestations of oppression when you can cast yourself as the star of your own Hardy Boys book? Typical white people bullshit. I am not sure how many non-white people you know but blind trust in the gov/Pentagon isn't exactly what I think of when I think minority. Accepting the official version despite the obvious red-herrings within mere days of a public announcement like last weekend's is plain bullshit IMO. First, the story is so weird and was evolving so fast at the beginning of the week that there was no telling which way it would go. Second, instead of pointing the finger at skeptics (justifiably skeptical considering our recent and past history), you should validate reasonable skepticism, which isn't in any way mutually exclusive with addressing oppression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 You mean like that ex CIA interrogator stating in his low profile NYT op ed last week about how torture doesn't work? yet, the dominant message communicated by the corporate media last week was that torture helped to catch OBL (even though it is apparently the opposite) but then, you'll claim disinformation isn't an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 How does a PC work? Does it have anything to do with MAGNETS????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstach Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 OBL's last Facebook post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 How does a PC work? Does it have anything to do with MAGNETS????????? No but you can get your PC to perform a lot better by taking a very large magnet and repeatedly dragging it over the hard-drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 The saddest irony of it is how politically debilitating this line of activity really is. Why bother organizing or engaging when the foe is a monolithic, omniscient power ten steps ahead of any possible maneuver? Why bother addressing the obvious, visible manifestations of oppression when you can cast yourself as the star of your own Hardy Boys book? Typical white people bullshit. I am not sure how many non-white people you know but blind trust in the gov/Pentagon isn't exactly what I think of when I think minority. Accepting the official version despite the obvious red-herrings within mere days of a public announcement like last weekend's is plain bullshit IMO. First, the story is so weird and was evolving so fast at the beginning of the week that there was no telling which way it would go. Second, instead of pointing the finger at skeptics (justifiably skeptical considering our recent and past history), you should validate reasonable skepticism, which isn't in any way mutually exclusive with addressing oppression. Reasonable skepticism is valid. Given the spectacular and almost immediate failures of other attempts at Wag the Dog style media constructions you cited earlier, this administration's historical ineptitude at messaging (Obama's back from the brink speechifications notwithstanding), and the terrific risks involved, I'm skeptical that the "deather's" claims of a faked bin Laden assassination are anything but the kind of reactionary response that seems to function more and more in place of a coherent analysis and strategy from the left. Where does a "bin Laden isn't dead, bin Laden was killed in 2001, bin Laden is being interrogated" narrative take us? Where has "AIDS was manufactured by the CIA" taken us? Where have any of the myriad examples of this line of "investigation" taken us? Yes, there are conspiracies. Fortunately for us, the plotters and the executors have had virtually no success in actually keeping them secret. Despite their obvious failures, a large portion of the public doggedly insists on the continuing capacity of the government to pull this shit off, and better yet, the bigger and more elaborate, the more successful they are! How does that work? In reality, what the State has been quite good at is manufacturing consent and mobilizing support based on grand narratives and well funded public relations work done by a complex of sympathetic think tanks, media wonks, and academics. Not high profile, hopelessly complex, Hollywood potboilers. No mystery necessary. You know this. But back to minorities. There are historical examples of conspiracies that have created long lasting distrust of the State amongst minorities (Tuskeegee comes to mind). But you can bet your ass that marginalized communities struggling in America are far more concerned about the day to day, highly visible oppression embodied in redlining, environmental racism, police brutality, immigration law, predatory lending, food insecurity, drugs, crumbling institutions, etc. than who really killed MLK. Apparently, some folks have got too much time on their hands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Reasonable skepticism is valid. Given the spectacular and almost immediate failures of other attempts at Wag the Dog style media constructions you cited earlier, this administration's historical ineptitude at messaging (Obama's back from the brink speechifications notwithstanding), and the terrific risks involved, I'm skeptical that the "deather's" claims of a faked bin Laden assassination are anything but the kind of reactionary response that seems to function more and more in place of a coherent analysis and strategy from the left. Where does a "bin Laden isn't dead, bin Laden was killed in 2001, bin Laden is being interrogated" narrative take us? Where has "AIDS was manufactured by the CIA" taken us? Where have any of the myriad examples of this line of "investigation" taken us? Yes, there are conspiracies. Fortunately for us, the plotters and the executors have had virtually no success in actually keeping them secret. Despite their obvious failures, a large portion of the public doggedly insists on the continuing capacity of the government to pull this shit off, and better yet, the bigger and more elaborate, the more successful they are! How does that work? In reality, what the State has been quite good at is manufacturing consent and mobilizing support based on grand narratives and well funded public relations work done by a complex of sympathetic think tanks, media wonks, and academics. Not high profile, hopelessly complex, Hollywood potboilers. No mystery necessary. You know this. But back to minorities. There are historical examples of conspiracies that have created long lasting distrust of the State amongst minorities (Tuskeegee comes to mind). But you can bet your ass that marginalized communities struggling in America are far more concerned about the day to day, highly visible oppression embodied in redlining, environmental racism, police brutality, immigration law, predatory lending, food insecurity, drugs, crumbling institutions, etc. than who really killed MLK. Apparently, some folks have got too much time on their hands... You are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Seemingly poorly conceived PR coups are successful with the majority of the public even after they have been debunked almost immediately. This points to the lack of a progressive mass media to counter a relatively constant stream of misinformation but it doesn’t mean we should not attempt to debunk these events when the PR appears quite outlandish as I maintain was/is the case for this major PR event. PR is likely also often used to misdirect away from burning issues but showing and stating the emperor has no clothes is also an integral part of addressing these burning issues. We can’t afford to not show skepticism about ALL causes of jingoism (as demonstrated in this very thread by the sheeple's reactions), especially early in a developing story. I agree that people spending all their energy on trying to debunk oldish PR events is ultimately counterproductive, especially when they overreach, but their basic questions may still be valid. Right, wealthier socio-economic groups have more time on their hands to engage in intellectual pursuits but just try to pretend that state PR should be taken at face value (like many do here) among many minority groups (likely less so today among blacks because of Obama) and you’ll be laughed off. I doubt any amount of castigating skeptics as “conspiracy theorists” would gain much traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Recognizing this as a PR coup and engaging the official rah-rah narrative with the more substantial questions of how much this cost us, the misguided demonization of Muslims, loss of civil liberties, the ongoing debates about torture and rendition, etc., and the most important issue, which is how we use it to push the political goalposts in the direction we want to go (reorienting imperial resources) is much different than running around with one's head cut off going, "he ain't dead, he ain't dead!!" or some other hokey ass bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Again, I am not sure how you'd manage to address the empire without specifically pointing out the lack of credibility of its PR campaigns, as is invariably done each time one discusses the more substantial issues you mention. So far, I haven't noticed too many people doing what you say, even though today as always that is bound to be part of the popular response. But I don't believe it is a good enough reason to ignore peremptory validation of any part of the official narrative about the War OF Terror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 derp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Or, you could say "He IS dead...thanks, guys" to the gentlemen who trained for years at great personal sacrifice, then risked their asses to make it happen...and did an incredible job doing it, considering the helo crash, minimized harm to innocents and all. You might also thank Obama for making good an a very risky campaign promise. I'm as anti-war as it gets, but Christ, get real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 the as-anti-war-as-it-gets manages to ignore 50+ years of imperial deception of the public and glorifies state sanctioned murder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 the as-anti-war-as-it-gets manages to ignore 50+ years of imperial deception of the public and glorifies state sanctioned murder I hear we also tried to murder Hitler back in the day. FOR SHAME!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 We've been planning this raid for 50 years!!!???? I'm even MORE impressed, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Noam Chomsky: My reaction to OBL's death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 We've been planning this raid for 50 years!!!???? I'm even MORE impressed, now. No, the previous 50+ years have left the empire's cred in taters. Try to follow the argument once in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Noam Chomsky: My reaction to OBL's death proof-positive he is as much of a kook as you and buckaroo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 here comes the mud-slinging goon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Whenever any of you jokers feel like showing how Obama hasn't continued the policies of empire building, let us know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Noam Chomsky: My reaction to OBL's death proof-positive he is as much of a kook as you and buckaroo! While I appreciate Chomsky's often biting and well researched books, this off-hand commentary is hard to take seriously. Really, there isn't always a conspiracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Jingoism IS the fog of war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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